Musician4077

Hey all.

I just got my Karajan biography and would recommend it HIGHLY. I'm only a few chapters into the daunting 800-some page work, but it's a very well written account! I am finding myself respecting this man more as a musician, page by page.

Again, yes, it would have been far easier for us now to look at Karajan and his work had he not lived during the time of and (to a VERY minor part) participated in the NSDAP. But I would like to remind you that there were, at one time, over 8,000,000 registered members of the Nazi Party. Are/were they all "Nazi bastards"? Don't know, don't really care. Without knowing every one of them personally, I do not feel qualified to lay the title of "bastard" on them. The ones that I truly DO believe were the bastards were the ones who actually had power and control within the party, i.e. Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels, Goering, Ribbentrop, etc. These were the ones who murdered millions, not members of the Reichsmusikkammer (of which Richard Strauss was originally President).

As for Karajan's not leaving the country, an indication I am getting from the book was that he felt he needed to stay to prove himself as a German-Austrian musician to his family. Who knows though. Read the book, it's good. I'm reminded of such Russian composers as Stravinsky and Shostakovich. They composed under the watchful eye of such leaders as Stalin in the U.S.S.R. under a similar totalitarian regime.

I'm getting the bad feeling that I'm ruffling a few feathers. At least this is the impression I'm getting. If this is so, please, send me a private message or even just post. I never intended to do so, please realize, and maybe it is merely MY feathers which are a bit out of place .

__________________
"Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." - Sherlock Holmes

davidjohnson

stravinsky didn't have much to do w/mother russia after the commies took over...and that was pre-stalin. he was roaming around paris, switzerland, and eventually parked in the usa.
prokofiev stayed in the ussr, as did shostakovich.

as you've discovered, there are many folks who aren't fond of herbie! the english seem to have accepted him soon after the war. he recorded a lot with the philharmonia (london) during the 50s.

dj

Johntpt

Check out a great DVD entitled "Great Conductors of the Third Reich - Art in the Service of Evil." Your opinion of Karajan may change after watching him conduct Meistersinger Prelude (which became almost a second Nazi anthem) in occupied Paris in 1941. Also jaw dropping is Furtwängler conducting the same piece at a Nazi factory workers' rally with huge Swastikas hanging all over the place in 1942. The music making is phenominal, but the political propaganda implications are overwhelming - Karajan and Furtwängler could not have been unaware of how the Nazi machine was using them. Now I can understand why the Chicago Symphony cancelled a contract they had signed with Furtwängler in the late 40s.

After watching this DVD, Meistersinger Prelude will never sound the same again!

JU

Manny Laureano

John,

I really think you have to step aside for a moment and give yourself a chance to rethink this issue. There's a lot of material that really comes down on the side of "when do you disassociate yourself with a regime that is doing harm?"

I guess I'm asking that you hear clearly the thoughts of those that have gone before you. It's hard but you may gain a perspective that is new and challenging.

It's that which changed many of my old political and social views and those were hard pills to swallow for me.

ML

Johntpt

Manny-

Could you clarify this for me? I'm not sure what thoughts I should reconsider.

This is a very interesting topic for me. It combines several of my hobbies/interests - history of WWII, Nazi Germany, etc, and historical conductors and orchestras.

JU

brian moon

Every last one of them. You need to study history more. I don't think that Great Compromisers In History would be an inspiring story.

Genesis 12:3
I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you."

Revelation 3:16
So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

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Revelation 3:20

Manny Laureano

John,

I appreciate that you're willing to explore our take on this topic since you are interested in it to the degree you are. I think that just about anything by Elie Wiesel would discuss the perspective we're talking about in a reasoned and compelling way. "Night" would be a good start. I think Wiesel would do justice to the topic of morality better than I. That's what this ultimately is, a discussion of moralty.

Again, John, thanks for considering this point of view. I don't think any of us that feel strongly about it would encourage you to find out more about this perspective it we didn't think it was really important for the current generation to know more about.

We live in a time of moral relatavism in which we are encouraged to have opinions that aren't "harsh" or "too" principled. Even in the recent Star Wars movie we're told that "only tyrants believe in absolutes."

Sigh.

Well, my friend, I absolutely believe you're entitled to your opinion. I also absolutely believe that we must always keep our eyes and ears open to the past as you've already shown by your interest in the subject.

ML

gringoloco

Hello all. First post here. Been lurking for a while and figured it was time to contribute.
This topic is interesting. As far as Furtwaengler is concerned, you should see the movie "Taking Sides". It addresses the issue pretty directly and they discuss Karajan as well.
Another thing to consider is how far do we take this type of idea. About the Wagner performances...I forget who mentioned that the Meistersinger prelude will never be the same after seeing that video with all of the swastikas. Well, Wagners ideas actually formed a pretty big part of the anti-semetism of the era. Does that mean we shouldn't listen to Wagner? Maybe. Maybe not.
I agree with Manny. Opinions are good. For better or worse, they give us strength and character. Although, in forming our opinions we should try to get as broad a perspective as we can. And try to incorporate all of this into the MUSIC we make.
We're getting into pretty subjective ground here. I like it.
Peace,
Rob

__________________
Be well,
Rob

Johntpt

Manny-

Thank for the reply. I don't think that our opinions on this matter differ that much. You stated that it would have been easier to forgive Karajan and Furtwängler had they not stayed to work in Nazi Germany, and that is also exactly how I feel. Karajan and Furtwängler, along with Toscanini, were among the greatest conductors ever, and all musicians today should be more familiar with their musicianship. Part of understanding their place in history includes understanding their involvement with the Nazis. Both worked closely with top Nazi officials, who used each of them, to different degrees, to provide moral legitimacy to the Third Reich. This was summed up well by Bruno Walter in a letter to Furtwängler in 1949.

"Please bear in mind that your art was used over the years as an extremely effective means of foreign propaganda for the regime of the devil; that you, thanks to your personal fame and great talent, performed valuable service for this regime and that in Germany itself the presence and activities of an artist of your rank helped to provide cultural and moral credit to those terrible criminals or at least gave considerable help to them....In contrast to that, of what significance was your helpful behavior in individual cases of Jewish distress?"

JU

Musician4077

Wow. Who knew I would start such a debate? It's kind of neat though, I like reading all of your thoughts, even though I may disagree with some of them.

On the matter of our views, I think you'd all agree with me in the statement "Nazi = BAD". To me, as long as we all concur with that, then we're basically on the same page. Now, as to whether all who were associated with the Nazis were bad, or just a select few, or whatever, that seems to be a matter of personal views. You all know my take on Karajan at least, namely that, while, yes, he did conduct under a horrible regime, he is not as cursed as the likes of Hitler, Himmel, Ribbentrop, etc.

Now, back to the debate.
Karajan did not personally deal with high ranking Nazis. He only met Goebbels once or twice, and one of the times was to arrange his marriage to a Jewish woman. Hitler saw Karajan conduct at a festival, I forget which, and DESPISED him. He tried to arrange it so that Karajan would never conduct in a major venue. Goering, who controlled the Berlin Opera, did not deal with Karajan, but rather seperate opera administrators. Karajan hated to direct "political pieces of music", and only did so when required of him in a concert series (yes, I know, he could have quit, probably should have, but oh well). On Wagner, there was a Nazi bastard (even though he was pre-Nazi) if there ever was one! Anti-semite, philandering, Aryan-supremicist, the lot! Still, he wrote some good music, and it's him as a musician, not as a person, that interests me (sort of like Karajan).

Brian, many people joined the party because they thought/hoped that it would do Germany some good, and were so willing to believe in a better future for themselves that they turned a blind eye to what was really happening. No excuse, granted, but at least understandable in a twisted sort of way. (Off this subject, I got your number and I'll be in touch after my Northwestern Institute. Maybe we can set something up, being sure to keep Karajan out of things ! Thanks for being willing to help me out!)

Well all, that's all the time I've got. Keep the thoughts coming and remember, Manny's right. Opinions are good for you and so is being open-minded. At the end of the day, all history is in the past, and music is just...music.

Jeff

__________________
"Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." - Sherlock Holmes