Musician4077

Mr. L,

I do see your point in the matter. I admit that Karajan was wrong in staying, but what was done, was done, and cannot be changed. I just try to put the past behind me, but at the same time leave it there behind me as a reminder. Thanks for the reading material. I'll dive into it as soon as I'm done here at Northwestern.

I do believe that Karajan should have excercised some sense and left Germany, and I think I'm understanding what you're getting at, perspective wise. You're saying that by merely remaining in a totalitarian regime, he, knowingly or not, condoned that doctrine...correct? Feel free to set me straight if I'm wrong, but if that's right, then I also agree. All I am trying to say (whether it's coming out the way I want it, I'm not sure) is that I have no idea how Karajan the man was, I just know Karajan the musician, and I have an utmost respect for that musician.

Thanks again for all the thoughts! I'm really enjoying this website, and all the knowledge that I am gaining!

Jeff

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"Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." - Sherlock Holmes

Manny Laureano

As do I. I appreciate your letting us, of another time and perspective, give you a taste of those views.

Thanks, Jeff, for your conversation.

ML

brian moon

Speaking of Wagner's music. Does anyone watch Curb Your Entusiasm? In one episode Larry David uses Meistersinger for a great laugh.

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Revelation 3:20

thebonecat

Herbert von Karajan, or "Little K" as Furtwangler referred to him as, is one of the most overrated conductors of all time. He completely destroyed the Berlin Philharmonic that Furtwangler built up. He was such a commerical fraud. He spent more time in his silly recording studio then he did in actual concert. He devoted himself to a practice that yielded absolutely nothing of any musical importance. His conducting skills were abysmal. If you've ever actually seen him conduct, you'll noticed that his face is pointed STRAIGHT toward the floor all the time. Never once made eye contact with the orchestra. The only reason he became music director is because right after Furtwangler died, the orchestra had a big american tour coming up. And the conductor who had filled in for Furtwangler while Furtwangler was on probation and continued conducting with Furtwangler upon Furtwanger's return, Sergiu Celibidache, had a prior engagement and could not make the tour. So, Little K, seeing that the berlin phil was in a bind said, "I'll do this tour IF you make me music director." And the managers of the orchestra, too worried about losing this big commercial opportunity, decided to go with the salesman instead of the musician (Celibidache). So, enough about this junk about Karajan being a "giant" or whatever. You listen to the berlin phil under Karajan, and then under Furtwangler or Celibidache, and you'll notice lightyears difference. Karajan was no more than a commercial salesman, and can very easily be the reason why classical music as a true art form is dying out today. Classical music has been turned into an awful entertainment business today as opposed to the truth seeking path that it used to be and KARAJAN lead the initial steps toward the destruction of true classical music.

BigBadWolf

Classical music has always been an entertainment business.

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Kevin

thebonecat

I think if you said that to one of the greatest composers of all time, J.S. Bach, he would be very offended. Well, i think if you said that to ANY of the great composers of all time, they would be offended. Besides, we all know that western music started in the church. It was written to glorify God. And if you take just a closer look at the classical music you call "an entertainment business" you'll find that in its truest form, classical music transcends everything about the physical and human world. The heights that one can achieve through classical music are not products of an entertainment business. As one wise man said:

"In music, it is not about beauty. It is about truth. Beauty is just the lure."

robertwhite

Thanks for sharing, bonecat. As moderator of this forum, I'd like to ask that you observe the civil tone this discussion has followed thusfar. Please disagree respectfully, and don't dismiss others opinions as "junk".

Now, in regards to the discussion...

I think you make a VERY big cognitive leap connecting HVK's commercial interests with the imminent "death" of classical music. The fact is that while his recordings certainly outweigh his live performance legacy, that doesn't suppress his importance. Furthermore, people have already mentioned other, much more damning, personal flaws the man may have possessed than his materialism or showmanship. What do you find distasteful MUSICALLY about him?

I'd like to invite you to be much more specific about what musical criteria you mean when you criticize him. Certainly lack of eye contact doesn't automatically make a bad conductor!?!?

Musician4077

I shudder to think what would happen if a conductor would refuse an opportunity to record. If an orchestra would never sit in a studio, where would the classical world be? Granted, the epitome of performance is the live concert setting, I have yet to find an orchestra that will yield to my will and play what I want, when I want it! This is where my favorite cds come in handy. Now, as for Karajan, to say that he spent all his time in his "silly" recording studio would be a total lie. He was always concerned with recreating (even in his recordings) perfect or near-perfect acoustics and was always striving towards the perfect concert. Nothing of musical importance? His 1963 Grammophone recording of the Beethoven symphonies is still called some of (if not THE) best standards. He was also instrumental in setting up various music festivals, though their names escape me at the moment, in Salzburg and other cities.
His conducting style was unique, yes, but who's isn't? There is not a single perfect conductor. Each has his (or her) own individual quirks. My high school band director never has eye contact. He looks up. That doesn't stop us from being the best wind ensemble in our area. That also doesn't stop us from making music or being musicians.
Thebonecat, I agree with your saying that classical music transcends everything on this world. However, music also entertains. I like it at least. I go to a concert to enjoy myself, and to immerse myself in what I love. To put on such concerts, money is required, and that fact means that music is a business.
In short, I still love Karajan's music. To me, when it's all said and done in regards to music, it really is just a matter of....does it sound good? Do I like it? I know that I like what Karajan was able to do with an already phenomenal orchestra, plus the others that he conducted.

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"Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." - Sherlock Holmes

JackD

Very interesting thread, not sure how I've managed to miss it for so long, but anyway...

I've always had a problem with Wagner because of his anti-Semitism, and as much as I try I can't get past that. I just see the terrible overtones (pun not intended!) in his music, and of course the horror that that kind of terrible ignorant mindset led to.

I've seen a DVD of Karajan conducting Strauss' Alpine Symphony, and as much as I love that piece, he seems to me to bring out a dark side to it - all the pomp and grandiouse Romanticism takes on a sinister twist (in my mind at least, and yes I am aware that's coming to some extent from my knowledge about his Nazi connections).

I mentioned Strauss, and that's another interesting one. My dad can't stand Wagner, and he can't stand Strauss either (citing his connections to the Nazi government, and the pompous Romanticism in his music). I've tried to put the non-Nazi argument for Strauss to him, but he has none of it

For me, I find a beauty and emotional frankness in Strauss' music that I don't mind in Wagner. It speaks to me much more, and quite honestly I just prefer it anyway!

I know someone (well, a friend of my sister's actually) who did a thesis on "Did German Romanticism lead to the gas chambers?" which takes the whole debate a LOT further, and asks the question of whether the anti-Semitic culture and unified Germany ideas came from Romanticism as an aesthetic value system. (Of course there was widespread anti Semitism in Europe as a whole - not just in Germany) I don't personally subscribe to that at all, but just thought I'd throw it out there

I found a translated version of Wagner's article "Judaism in Music" (the translation leaves something to be desired, but still I think it's very interesting) In the midst of his raving about "our repugnance" of Jews, he refers to himself and his sympathetic readers as "good-natured Humanists"!!! This is the Wagner I think about when I hear his music, and that is why I cannot enjoy it for purely musical reasons, no matter how hard I try.

I find all this stuff fascinating. How these people could carry out so casually such terrible attrocities against other human beings, and then go back and identify so strongly with a piece of music like Beethoven 9 - a work which seeks above all else to emphasise the brotherhood, beauty and equality in humanity. It's a terrible contradiction, but one I think that takes us to the very deepest questions about ourselves and what it means to be human.

Anyway, it's late and I'm probably ranting by now.


Jack

Manny Laureano

Big difference between a rant and speaking from the heart.

ML