A must-read by Craig Morris - Page 8

rowuk · 08-12-2006, 11:33 AM

I see a lot of comments here that imply that the trumpet player regardless of age is the victim. As a rule, the orchestra is on the receiving end of what we do and getting/keeping a job depends on the subjective opinions those people. What does "not fitting into the section" really mean?

On a side note, in Germany, there is hardly any chance of getting an orchestra job after 35 (many of the ads specify this explicitly-you don't even get an invitation).

Where is the problem? Maybe some conductors don't like characters that are not easily formed........ Newbies may just be somewhat more pliable.
Robin

ecarroll · 08-12-2006, 06:17 PM

Robin,

I believe that German orchestras have the same rules as Dutch orchestras: principals must step down into the section at age 60 and compulsory retirement for all at 65. If anything it keeps a fresh flow of new talent.

Most American orchestras search for players who can contribute to the pension scheme for 30 years.

Best,
EC

tromj · 08-13-2006, 12:02 AM

It's not just the pension scheme, probably. If you are the musical director, wouldn't you want to hire someone who was in it for the long haul.
I too have enjoyed the comments, and agree with those who interpreted Craig's article as tongue in cheek. I found it very inspirational.
It's also important to keep in mind that there are gigs for trumpets players at all levels of achievement, and with all degrees of ability in various aspects of their playing. I have played gigs with far better known trumpet players, whose ability to do certain things on the horn leave me speechless, and have heard back from the grapevine some of the nice they had to say about my playing in areas i never realized they noticed.
It's important in our practicing to be brutally honest about our shortcomings. It's just as important for us to remeber what we bring of value to the table.
I feel priviledged to have people like Craig Morris and Jim Ross as regular contributers here on TM. I have met Jim once or twice at Dillon's, and besides being a great player, he is the kind of nice guy we all root for to win the best jobs.

Albert Castillo · 08-14-2006, 10:39 AM

There is two diferents problems with age.
I think Mr. Morris means that the young people is very good, well prepared, and more "aggresive" or "get-a-top-job-focused".
The second problem, and specially in Germany, is that orchestras don't like older musicians: because of all above pension things...
In Germany is a great problem that a young performer must play for a principal job. No way to play second or assistant, acquire experience and then jump in a better position or better orchestra. Because of that, many young players, that are not good enough ( or they hadn't good luck ) for a principal chair, are without job. By another way, foreigners full principal positions. This system is, IMHO, negativ for the young german students. That's a "all or nothing": principal trumpet on top orchestra or subway player.

And, I agree mit ROWUK, but: 35 years old is a limit to get a job, so no way to get it. But earlier with 27-28 or 30 years there is too no way to get a invitation to play. All players in auditions are 22 to 26 years old, sometimes younger. Students are ready when 22 (after 4 years Study) to go for auditions, follow one or two extra years postdegree Study, or a aprentice chair in a professional orchestra.

That's what is really crazy.

Best wishes,

08-12-2006, 11:33 AM	#71 (permalink)
rowuk Moderator Fortissimo User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 4,396	I see a lot of comments here that imply that the trumpet player regardless of age is the victim. As a rule, the orchestra is on the receiving end of what we do and getting/keeping a job depends on the subjective opinions those people. What does "not fitting into the section" really mean? On a side note, in Germany, there is hardly any chance of getting an orchestra job after 35 (many of the ads specify this explicitly-you don't even get an invitation). Where is the problem? Maybe some conductors don't like characters that are not easily formed........ Newbies may just be somewhat more pliable. Robin __________________ Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

08-13-2006, 12:02 AM	#73 (permalink)
tromj Piano User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Teaneck, NJ Posts: 319	It's not just the pension scheme, probably. If you are the musical director, wouldn't you want to hire someone who was in it for the long haul. I too have enjoyed the comments, and agree with those who interpreted Craig's article as tongue in cheek. I found it very inspirational. It's also important to keep in mind that there are gigs for trumpets players at all levels of achievement, and with all degrees of ability in various aspects of their playing. I have played gigs with far better known trumpet players, whose ability to do certain things on the horn leave me speechless, and have heard back from the grapevine some of the nice they had to say about my playing in areas i never realized they noticed. It's important in our practicing to be brutally honest about our shortcomings. It's just as important for us to remeber what we bring of value to the table. I feel priviledged to have people like Craig Morris and Jim Ross as regular contributers here on TM. I have met Jim once or twice at Dillon's, and besides being a great player, he is the kind of nice guy we all root for to win the best jobs. __________________ Bach 37 Yamaha 8310Z Yamaha 631 Flugel Getzen 850 Cornet Yamaha Picc Yamaha Xeno C 8445 Monette B1-5M, B1-5F, B1-5D cornet, Stork 3P, Monette C1-5M

08-14-2006, 10:39 AM	#74 (permalink)
Albert Castillo Pianissimo User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Munich Posts: 107	There is two diferents problems with age. I think Mr. Morris means that the young people is very good, well prepared, and more "aggresive" or "get-a-top-job-focused". The second problem, and specially in Germany, is that orchestras don't like older musicians: because of all above pension things... In Germany is a great problem that a young performer must play for a principal job. No way to play second or assistant, acquire experience and then jump in a better position or better orchestra. Because of that, many young players, that are not good enough ( or they hadn't good luck ) for a principal chair, are without job. By another way, foreigners full principal positions. This system is, IMHO, negativ for the young german students. That's a "all or nothing": principal trumpet on top orchestra or subway player. And, I agree mit ROWUK, but: 35 years old is a limit to get a job, so no way to get it. But earlier with 27-28 or 30 years there is too no way to get a invitation to play. All players in auditions are 22 to 26 years old, sometimes younger. Students are ready when 22 (after 4 years Study) to go for auditions, follow one or two extra years postdegree Study, or a aprentice chair in a professional orchestra. That's what is really crazy. Best wishes, __________________ Albert A. Castillo

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08-12-2006, 06:17 PM	#72 (permalink)
ecarroll Artist in Residence Forte User Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: NH/CA/PQ Posts: 1,588	Robin, I believe that German orchestras have the same rules as Dutch orchestras: principals must step down into the section at age 60 and compulsory retirement for all at 65. If anything it keeps a fresh flow of new talent. Most American orchestras search for players who can contribute to the pension scheme for 30 years. Best, EC

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