manofjazz

You guys didn't have to be a smartass... I was simply stating I'm qualified in saying what I did. But, if your case is saying it's out of whack. Then, yeah, what I said has no presedence here. Sorry about that

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Rimshot

"ManofJazz" may not yet have developed a very polished style for the art of public discourse, but the essential facts he conveys are hard to argue with--so long as you just look at facts, and leave the emotions at the door.

What people get paid has absolutely nothing to do with the abstract worth of what they do, other than as represented in the very complex entanglements of the market. When the "market" is as broad as it is in the West, this ends up tied closely to what's popular; in more dictatorial regions, "value" may be imposed by oligarchy, and if they like music, you're theorectically in luck if that's your bag (but I've never seen any evidence that's actually a valid theory). Whatever, it still has little to do with idealism and all the rest of the stuff people like to think is really important (which it IS, but it doesn't determine what people make--which is much more closely related to the jungle model).

E.g., PhD researchers in many important scientific and medical fields make little more than school teachers--perhaps another undervalued group? The list would take up hours to compile... I don't think symphony players are doing too badly given the subsidy-based nature of the beast. The fact that professional symphonies represent a much smaller market than the artifically inflated overstock of qualified players is not a moral issue--except for all the music schools that fill out their ranks encourgaing unrealistic vision for thousands of talented fledglings. Truth ain't pretty alot of the time.

tpter1

I came across this today. Not to dig up an already belabored subject, but because I felt it appropriate to address in light of something Manny said about management. Considering his remarks, I read the article and was able to see some clear points.

http://myauditions.com/groupee/forum...3/m/9401041501

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Eclipsehornplayer

Well, it is what it is....

I guess you can only pay them what the market will bear...

How many NYP tee shirts, hats etc.. do you see on the streets of America?

Now how many New York Yankees hats, tee shirts etc.. do you see..

Merchendising helps to elevate salaries in pro sports. This also could be a contributing factor to the lack of a fitting salary.

my .02

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Siegtrmpt

Musicians bemoan the general lack of pay on one hand and then resent those sucessful symphony players who make a decent living on the other. Along with sports, tv news and pop music we are in the entertainment industry and don't make as much because we simply aren't as popular. It's no more complicated than that.

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robertwhite

Bill, where is anyone being resentful of successful symphony players in this discussion? In fact, most of us are saying just the opposite - that those successful players deserve every penny.

trpt2345

Chump change to some, but to the average competent jazz musician-forget it! Jazz guys don't even get a sliver of government/foundation subsidies that prop up every major orchestra in this country. Do musicians who work in the field of european art music deserve more than what those who work in american art music make? Or is there still the outmoded idea that classical music is "legit" and jazz somehow inferior?

Michael McLaughlin (pulling out the soapbox).

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trpt2345

Check this one out apropos the discussion from today's NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/28/ar...html?th&emc=th

Michael McLaughlin

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Manny Laureano

I've only been saying this for years. Thank you for posting that.

Hey, Norman Lebrecht: SHUT UP!!!

ML