Why C Trumpet? - Page 4

wiseone2 · 03-17-2006, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PINCHUNO

With all due respect to the professionals in the "classical" field, we are in 2006 now and with all the professional copyists and notation software there is out there, I really do think that there is no need for transposition, or fading hard to read parts nowadays. Obviously there are parts for certain trumpets in certain keys that have to be respected, for stylistic and tonal reasons, but at least the parts should be in hte right key also, to make the job at hand more enjoyable.
Don't get me wrong, transposition should have to be studied, but it shouldn't carry as much weight as it does.
It's like a lot of the terminology used in classical harmony. The German/Italian sixth. Who actually says that? Why not, a type of augmented chord and the Neapolitan sixth really kills me! Why not the flat 2 chord? It's time to move on. Jazz and modern terminology is much more descriptive and to the point. "What chord is that? oh a dominant 7th with the flat 5 and sharp 9? ok."
I have played many gigs (in the commercial world) where I have often ended up taking away the parts and printing them out myself for ease of reading. But now it seems that most people have gotten their act together and use notation software to produce good quality scores. It does make the gig a lot easier if you can actually read the charts to start with!

I started the study of transposition at about 8 years old. My first teacher was really "Old School." Transposing is not difficult if you work on it.
There is no substitute for hard work. I am a thinking, walking, talking computer. I can read at sight, parts in Bb,C,D,Eb, E, F. This is what a player is expected to do.
In the commercial world I have also on occasion had to transpose. No big thing.
You raise issues about the legibility of orchestral parts. That is the Librarian's job. Lots of rental parts have really been butchered by guys who can't transpose, and write wrong notes in the parts.........in ink

Hopefully the librarian cleans up the parts

Practice your transposition.
Wilmer

brian moon · 03-17-2006, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PINCHUNO

With all due respect to the professionals in the "classical" field, we are in 2006 now and with all the professional copyists and notation software there is out there, I really do think that there is no need for transposition,

As long as there are transposing instruments there will be a need for it.

Transposition is, at most, no harder than learning to read the notes in the first place.

Manny Laureano · 03-17-2006, 08:22 AM

It's hard for guys of my generation and older not to feel like so many Mustache Petes or Obi Wan Kenobis when we start talking about the old ways.

One of the things I understand more and more as I stay in this business is that ther are bad traditions and good traditions. The study of transposition is always a good tradition.

As long as there are singers who need to change keys at the last moment,

as long as you have English, Russian, and Italian players who like the Bb and Americans that favor the C,

as long as you have intricate licks that lay better on one horn than another,

as long as you have chops that are not strong which neccesitates the need for a smaller horn you'll need the skill of moving notes around in your brain.

It's just not a question of "Well, just practice that lick and you'll be fine." Sometimes an active freelancer or recording jobber doesn't have that luxury. I once brought a D trumpet with me to a session and it saved me at the last session from a pain in-the-neck E major lick to a dandy one in C major. Easier isn't always better. Efficient is good but easy makes lazy.

Well, those are the thoughts of a Mustache Pete trying to preserve the old ways.

ML

Alex Yates · 03-17-2006, 10:08 AM

Having come up in the old tradition, I agree with everything that ML and Wilmer stated. The habit is so engrained that I don't want parts written out. These days you can buy piccolo music and it will come with a part in A. I still take the C or D part over the transposed part. It is just a natural part of my piccolo playing "mindset". All in all, Manny's list states pretty clearly why we need to keep our transposition skills up to par.

Hey Wilmer, I feel your frustration. I absolutely can't stand when I get a rental and the WRONG notes are written in or wrong fingerings scribbled all over the place. And when it's in ink....fuggedaboudit.

gringoloco · 03-17-2006, 11:57 AM

Yah...written in notes are a nightmare.
Another thing to remember about a lot of early romantic rep and all classical and baroque rep is that they are natural trumpet parts. I prefer to read these parts in the original printed key of C major. I feel it keeps my head in the natural trumpet mind set. I feel more closely connected to the overtone serious which is what these parts were. seems like more pure trumpet writing.
Pieces written in Bb major for natural trumpet (were playing Schumann 1 this week) would look very strange to me printed in Bb mafor for C trumpet.

Peace,
Rob

B15M · 03-17-2006, 06:55 PM

I know I'm going to get a lot of "stuff" for saying this.

I am one that has some trouble transposing. Mostly because I don't do it enough. I will go for the written A part every time on picc.

I have found that all of the professional symphony players I've met were not only musically talented but smart also. I am I think a musically talanted player and very strong and pretty accurate.

I have never done well in school and I think I have some kind of learning disability. If I could get transposed parts that would open a big door.

My point is that I think there are a lot of musically talanted players out there that could flourish with a little crutch.

Manny said something like it's exercise for the brain but maybe I can't lift the weight.

Manny Laureano · 03-17-2006, 07:21 PM

B,

Someting occurred to me when I read your post: why not copy the parts out by hand and have your own set of transposed parts for whatever you're playing? The old guard used to do this all the time (Vacchiano and Broiles included).

Jazz players transcribe stuff off records and that act reinforces their ability to improvise. This is sort of the same. What do you think?

ML

camelbrass · 03-18-2006, 12:41 AM

Firstly let me add my rather underweight 2 cents worth. I think transposition is a key element of musicianship...trumpet player or not. The best musicians I know can all transpose by sight (admittedly some more freely than others).

However, please forgive me if this question is somewhat naiive since I have very little experience in orchestral playing. When choosing a particular keyed trumpet for a part which would be the largest consideration in your choice...

1.ease of transposition
2.the degree of technical difficulty of the transposed key
3.security given the tesitura of the piece
4.the appropriateness of its sound within the context of the piece?

Regards,

Trevor

B15M · 03-18-2006, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny Laureano

B,

Someting occurred to me when I read your post: why not copy the parts out by hand and have your own set of transposed parts for whatever you're playing? The old guard used to do this all the time (Vacchiano and Broiles included).

Jazz players transcribe stuff off records and that act reinforces their ability to improvise. This is sort of the same. What do you think?

ML

I have been working on transposing for about three years now.
I can go up and down one step easily. I get in trouble when I have to go more. You might as well forget about F or G trumpet.

I did start to copy parts but what I have been doing when I have time to practice the part is; I photo copy the part and write in the notes. I practice like that for a while until it starts to click in and then I throw away the copy. It kind of comes to me after a while but slips away if I don't keep after it every day.

Don't forget, I'm an old guy with a day job. If I were still young I would try harder with this. I am lucky that when I play a job and I get the part for D trumpet I have the lip to play it on the D trumpet. (most of the time)

wiseone2 · 03-18-2006, 08:01 AM

Hi B15M,
Get a bass clef buddy. I learned to transpose by doing it.
Bass clef+4 sharps= Trumpet in D using a Bb trumpet. Playing a C trumpet using the same elements will get you to E trumpet.
Play duets with alto sax players, you will get to know Eb transposition really quickly.
French horn players usually like to play duets.......that's the way I learned F trumpet.
Make transposition fun, it really is not that difficult to learn the skill.
Wilmer

03-17-2006, 11:57 AM	#35 (permalink)
gringoloco New Friend Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Merida, Yucatan Posts: 34	Yah...written in notes are a nightmare. Another thing to remember about a lot of early romantic rep and all classical and baroque rep is that they are natural trumpet parts. I prefer to read these parts in the original printed key of C major. I feel it keeps my head in the natural trumpet mind set. I feel more closely connected to the overtone serious which is what these parts were. seems like more pure trumpet writing. Pieces written in Bb major for natural trumpet (were playing Schumann 1 this week) would look very strange to me printed in Bb mafor for C trumpet. Peace, Rob __________________ Be well, Rob

03-18-2006, 08:01 AM	#40 (permalink)
wiseone2 Artitst in Residence Forte User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Brooklyn,NY Posts: 2,377	Hi B15M, Get a bass clef buddy. I learned to transpose by doing it. Bass clef+4 sharps= Trumpet in D using a Bb trumpet. Playing a C trumpet using the same elements will get you to E trumpet. Play duets with alto sax players, you will get to know Eb transposition really quickly. French horn players usually like to play duets.......that's the way I learned F trumpet. Make transposition fun, it really is not that difficult to learn the skill. Wilmer __________________ Be sure Brain is engaged before putting Mouthpiece in gear. S.Suark 1951

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03-17-2006, 08:22 AM	#33 (permalink)
Manny Laureano Utimate User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: USA Posts: 5,989	It's hard for guys of my generation and older not to feel like so many Mustache Petes or Obi Wan Kenobis when we start talking about the old ways. One of the things I understand more and more as I stay in this business is that ther are bad traditions and good traditions. The study of transposition is always a good tradition. As long as there are singers who need to change keys at the last moment, as long as you have English, Russian, and Italian players who like the Bb and Americans that favor the C, as long as you have intricate licks that lay better on one horn than another, as long as you have chops that are not strong which neccesitates the need for a smaller horn you'll need the skill of moving notes around in your brain. It's just not a question of "Well, just practice that lick and you'll be fine." Sometimes an active freelancer or recording jobber doesn't have that luxury. I once brought a D trumpet with me to a session and it saved me at the last session from a pain in-the-neck E major lick to a dandy one in C major. Easier isn't always better. Efficient is good but easy makes lazy. Well, those are the thoughts of a Mustache Pete trying to preserve the old ways. ML

03-17-2006, 10:08 AM	#34 (permalink)
Alex Yates Forte User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 2,405	Having come up in the old tradition, I agree with everything that ML and Wilmer stated. The habit is so engrained that I don't want parts written out. These days you can buy piccolo music and it will come with a part in A. I still take the C or D part over the transposed part. It is just a natural part of my piccolo playing "mindset". All in all, Manny's list states pretty clearly why we need to keep our transposition skills up to par. Hey Wilmer, I feel your frustration. I absolutely can't stand when I get a rental and the WRONG notes are written in or wrong fingerings scribbled all over the place. And when it's in ink....fuggedaboudit.

03-17-2006, 06:55 PM	#36 (permalink)
B15M Forte User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Monroe Ct. Posts: 1,282	I know I'm going to get a lot of "stuff" for saying this. I am one that has some trouble transposing. Mostly because I don't do it enough. I will go for the written A part every time on picc. I have found that all of the professional symphony players I've met were not only musically talented but smart also. I am I think a musically talanted player and very strong and pretty accurate. I have never done well in school and I think I have some kind of learning disability. If I could get transposed parts that would open a big door. My point is that I think there are a lot of musically talanted players out there that could flourish with a little crutch. Manny said something like it's exercise for the brain but maybe I can't lift the weight.

03-17-2006, 07:21 PM	#37 (permalink)
Manny Laureano Utimate User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: USA Posts: 5,989	B, Someting occurred to me when I read your post: why not copy the parts out by hand and have your own set of transposed parts for whatever you're playing? The old guard used to do this all the time (Vacchiano and Broiles included). Jazz players transcribe stuff off records and that act reinforces their ability to improvise. This is sort of the same. What do you think? ML

03-18-2006, 12:41 AM	#38 (permalink)
camelbrass Mezzo Forte User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Dubai, UAE Posts: 798	Firstly let me add my rather underweight 2 cents worth. I think transposition is a key element of musicianship...trumpet player or not. The best musicians I know can all transpose by sight (admittedly some more freely than others). However, please forgive me if this question is somewhat naiive since I have very little experience in orchestral playing. When choosing a particular keyed trumpet for a part which would be the largest consideration in your choice... 1.ease of transposition 2.the degree of technical difficulty of the transposed key 3.security given the tesitura of the piece 4.the appropriateness of its sound within the context of the piece? Regards, Trevor

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