Why C Trumpet? - Page 6

tromj · 03-20-2006, 05:27 PM

Transposition certainly helped me last monday when the second horn player did not show up at a big brass ensemble rehearsal at local 802, and we already had enough trumpets. So I took out my flugel and played second horn.
Copied out part: $2.00
Grateful contractor: priceless.

music matters · 03-21-2006, 02:29 PM

Hi Noel,

As you know I am very much an ameteur player, and in the Orchestra last year I had to transpose for trumpet in C, D, Eb, and E to be able to play on my Bb! Only one part was in Bb- this was all in one concert! ( I found E the hardest transposition - do you think of it as a tritone, augmented 4th, or diminished 5th!)

I had to be honest and I cheated with a few of them and photocopied the parts and wrote the notes in pencil - but the conductor was happy, so as you say, it's the end product that matters! All good exercise though!

All the best,

Graham

lonelyangel · 03-21-2006, 07:58 PM

Hi Graham. hope you are well.

As far as transposing from E onto B flat trumpet goes, it all depends on the key of the original music. For example I'd rather think of A than B double flat when transposing from a part written in E flat - so augmented 4th not diminished 5th but the reverse would be true if the original were in A ie. I'd be thinking E flat, not D sharp. Common senese really - must admit - if I didn't know the piece really well, I'd be writing a cheat part out for myself - or passing the part on to someone else, which is sometimes the best way to 'get the job done'.

All the best, Noel.

Manny Laureano · 03-21-2006, 08:15 PM

Another way to think of that, at least the way I was taught, is that you go by the key. That is to say:

if a piece is in many sharps, use the fifth as your interval. Up a fifth is in 6 flats. If you have, say, four sharps in the key signature then 6 flats minus 4 sharps equals up a fifth in 2 flats. You could think of trumpet in F in 2 flats.

If a piece is in 4 flats use the interval of the the fourth and use 6 sharps. Six sharps minus four flats equals up a fourth in 2 sharps. You could think of it as Eb trumpet in 2 sharps.

To the uninitiated it seems complex but it truly simplifies everything about E trumpet. E trumpet, using this system, is no more complex than A assuming you're using a Bb trumpet. E trumpet is always either up a fifth in 6 flats or up a fourth in 6 sharps assuming the key is C major to begin with. All my advanced high students learned with this method (taught to me by Mr. Vacchiano) and by the time they left me they were more proficient at it than many professionals around town.

ML

PINCHUNO · 03-22-2006, 04:27 AM

Talk about headaches

Veldkamp · 03-22-2006, 12:21 PM

Are the newer compositions still asking for different keyed trumpets, or are they only used in older compositions?

And are russian trumpet players more into the Bb trumpet/ I thought Dokshizer and Sergei were playing Bb trumpets on the videos I saw.

Manny Laureano · 03-22-2006, 12:35 PM

Everything that I've played new has been for C or Bb with one exception: a work by Aaron Kernis where he wrote it for D trumpet. It was to be played on tour and didn't want to schlepp four hour horns so I just played it on C.

B15M · 03-22-2006, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny Laureano

Another way to think of that, at least the way I was taught, is that you go by the key. That is to say:

if a piece is in many sharps, use the fifth as your interval. Up a fifth is in 6 flats. If you have, say, four sharps in the key signature then 6 flats minus 4 sharps equals up a fifth in 2 flats. You could think of trumpet in F in 2 flats.

If a piece is in 4 flats use the interval of the the fourth and use 6 sharps. Six sharps minus four flats equals up a fourth in 2 sharps. You could think of it as Eb trumpet in 2 sharps.

To the uninitiated it seems complex but it truly simplifies everything about E trumpet. E trumpet, using this system, is no more complex than A assuming you're using a Bb trumpet. E trumpet is always either up a fifth in 6 flats or up a fourth in 6 sharps assuming the key is C major to begin with. All my advanced high students learned with this method (taught to me by Mr. Vacchiano) and by the time they left me they were more proficient at it than many professionals around town.

ML

If I understand this correctly, this is the method that I use for all transposing. I think of how many steps up or down and what key I'm in and that's it. The problem is when your reading and they throw in another flat or sharp.

One step is cake now and I have started playing B flat parts on D trumpet to get used to going to the next line or space. Still not the end of the world But I haven't really tried a forth yet unless I had to for a job and then I either write it in on a copy or I would use another trumpet to make it work so I could read the part.

gzent · 03-22-2006, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny Laureano

It doesn't have anything to do with transposition. It has to do with an instrument that makes the upper register a bit more accessible and has a nice capacity for blending in lighter contexts light a lot of French music, just as one example. Even Mahler indicated for its specific use in his later symphonies (auf kleinem piston). The "small trumpet" Mahler referred to was the "new" C trumpet.

ML

Manny,

Is the desired sound really the determining factor in today's orchestral trumpet sections or is it simply tradition? It seems to me that as a listener I have a hard time telling the difference between the sound of a Bb and C trumpet in modern orchestras. The choices of horn, weight, mouthpiece, etc. today seem to make the sound between Bb's and C's very hard to notice.
Refer to how you compared the sound of your Eb and your C, for example.

Another way I see it is that if one requires a certain sound from a trumpet you have far more choices in Bb than in C. If you want a horn that accentuates a certain timbre then you can certainly find one these days.

It seems more like tradition than need at this point, but as a non-orchestra player I'm just speculating.

Greg

Veldkamp · 03-22-2006, 03:29 PM

Did we stiil talk about using 1 horn at a time ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KV9b7...search=trumpet

(Sorry, I could not resist to post it....)

03-20-2006, 05:27 PM	#51 (permalink)
tromj Piano User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Teaneck, NJ Posts: 319	Transposition certainly helped me last monday when the second horn player did not show up at a big brass ensemble rehearsal at local 802, and we already had enough trumpets. So I took out my flugel and played second horn. Copied out part: $2.00 Grateful contractor: priceless. __________________ Bach 37 Yamaha 8310Z Yamaha 631 Flugel Getzen 850 Cornet Yamaha Picc Yamaha Xeno C 8445 Monette B1-5M, B1-5F, B1-5D cornet, Stork 3P, Monette C1-5M

03-21-2006, 07:58 PM	#53 (permalink)
lonelyangel Pianissimo User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: London Posts: 196	Hi Graham. hope you are well. As far as transposing from E onto B flat trumpet goes, it all depends on the key of the original music. For example I'd rather think of A than B double flat when transposing from a part written in E flat - so augmented 4th not diminished 5th but the reverse would be true if the original were in A ie. I'd be thinking E flat, not D sharp. Common senese really - must admit - if I didn't know the piece really well, I'd be writing a cheat part out for myself - or passing the part on to someone else, which is sometimes the best way to 'get the job done'. All the best, Noel. __________________ Noel Langley - Eclipse Artist noel@eclipsetrumpets.com Eclipse Medium Yellow, scratch gold Eclipse Medium Heavy Red, custom 'Diamond Back' in 24ct gold Eclipse Red Brass Flugel Custom Scherzer piccolo with copper Wedgewood bell, finished in scratch gold Giardinelli 6S, 6M, 6FL Bach 3CW

03-22-2006, 04:27 AM	#55 (permalink)
PINCHUNO Pianissimo User Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 57	Transposition Talk about headaches

03-22-2006, 12:21 PM	#56 (permalink)
Veldkamp Piano User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: the Netherlands Posts: 382	Are the newer compositions still asking for different keyed trumpets, or are they only used in older compositions? And are russian trumpet players more into the Bb trumpet/ I thought Dokshizer and Sergei were playing Bb trumpets on the videos I saw. __________________ www.erikveldkamp.com http://trumpetkings.blogspot.com

03-22-2006, 03:29 PM	#60 (permalink)
Veldkamp Piano User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: the Netherlands Posts: 382	Did we stiil talk about using 1 horn at a time ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KV9b7...search=trumpet (Sorry, I could not resist to post it....) __________________ www.erikveldkamp.com http://trumpetkings.blogspot.com

03-21-2006, 02:29 PM	#52 (permalink)
music matters Pianissimo User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: ON Canada Posts: 226	Hi Noel, As you know I am very much an ameteur player, and in the Orchestra last year I had to transpose for trumpet in C, D, Eb, and E to be able to play on my Bb! Only one part was in Bb- this was all in one concert! ( I found E the hardest transposition - do you think of it as a tritone, augmented 4th, or diminished 5th!) I had to be honest and I cheated with a few of them and photocopied the parts and wrote the notes in pencil - but the conductor was happy, so as you say, it's the end product that matters! All good exercise though! All the best, Graham

03-21-2006, 08:15 PM	#54 (permalink)
Manny Laureano Utimate User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: USA Posts: 5,989	Another way to think of that, at least the way I was taught, is that you go by the key. That is to say: if a piece is in many sharps, use the fifth as your interval. Up a fifth is in 6 flats. If you have, say, four sharps in the key signature then 6 flats minus 4 sharps equals up a fifth in 2 flats. You could think of trumpet in F in 2 flats. If a piece is in 4 flats use the interval of the the fourth and use 6 sharps. Six sharps minus four flats equals up a fourth in 2 sharps. You could think of it as Eb trumpet in 2 sharps. To the uninitiated it seems complex but it truly simplifies everything about E trumpet. E trumpet, using this system, is no more complex than A assuming you're using a Bb trumpet. E trumpet is always either up a fifth in 6 flats or up a fourth in 6 sharps assuming the key is C major to begin with. All my advanced high students learned with this method (taught to me by Mr. Vacchiano) and by the time they left me they were more proficient at it than many professionals around town. ML

03-22-2006, 12:35 PM	#57 (permalink)
Manny Laureano Utimate User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: USA Posts: 5,989	Everything that I've played new has been for C or Bb with one exception: a work by Aaron Kernis where he wrote it for D trumpet. It was to be played on tour and didn't want to schlepp four hour horns so I just played it on C.

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