W Scott

Reading between the lines, what is being said here is that money dictates the sound. Whoever is paying the bills gets to say what the band is going to sound like and then finds the players with that sound.

Bachman---as for the next generation, I think we are going to see some really good players who are extremely versatile. It used to be that a musician really learned his craft at the college level and then found a professional, paying gig---if they were really good. The 'c' and 'd' level students from college couldn't get the pro jobs and wound up teacing music on the side or got a job as a band teacher in an elementary or high school somewhere.

Now, that's changing. The 'A' and 'B' students aren't finding the pro jobs and they are taking over the band teacher slots and teaching students on the sides. They are also playing more with community bands and on church worship teams. That means that students are getting a better, basic grounding in music earlier and that the average joe is hearing better music from the community groups than they used too.

Since Woody Herman has been mentioned here, one of his sons is Scott Herman, who is an excellent drummer. But, he has a family and didn't want to do all of the touring a musician does. He has a day job and plays on a couple of church worship team and shows kids interested in drumming 'the ropes'. My sons' kindergarten teacher has a degree in music from the University of Florida and had a band that opened for Celia Cruz. Nowdays, he has a regular jazz gig on Friday nights at a local resturant and teaches five and six year olds to love music the rest of the week.

The result is that average folks don't have to wait for a touring 'pro' or pro band to hit town to hear really good music. It's starting to look a bit like the music scene around the early 1900's----community based with excellent local musicians.


Bill

trumplyr

Larry,

Thank you so much for taking the time to write this post. As a "legit" player, almost all of this is new to me.....and very interesting. I really should, but don't , know much more about the "jazz" side of trumpet history and this really whets my appetite. Thanks again for a great post.

Marty

Larry Gianni

Marty,

Thank you very much for those kind thoughts. A lot of tradition and history has been lost both on the commercial and classical side in part to the hectic and impatient pace of today’s society with all it's distractions and a lack of true mentoring by established players that was so very important to past generation's players both commercial and classical.

By and large, I find a well prepared classically trained trumpet player has a much better understanding of how and why a piece of music should be approached and played. The music is still the most important aspect, not “ higher, faster louder “ which has seemed to devour the younger commercial / jazz players. In discussions with younger classical players, I find a deeper understanding of different orchestra's trumpet section lineage and I find the classical players can name the heritage and lineage of most of the trumpet players in these major orchestra’s back 5 decades.

Tradition is more ingrained in the methods used to teach “ legit “ players and ” listening “ to different renditions by different and various artists playing the same concerto , aria or exposed solo is still very much encouraged as part of the learning process.

As I write this I’m listening to Maurice Andre play the Haydn-Concerto in Eb, recording circa 1968.
I have recordings of this piece played by many artists ( Gerald Schwartz, Phil Smith , Tom Stevens,Tomofei Dorchester, Mario Guarnari, Wynton Marsalis, etc. ) they are all fantastic versions and I am in “ awe “ of each one, but I always am drawn back to the Maurice Andre version. Why, I don’t know. Maybe because it’s the first one I heard. ( over and over )

Commercial players really don’t have that sort of luxury in capturing and emulating certain charasteristics of style. The closest thing may be is a jazz trumpet players rendition of “ My Funny Valentine “ and it’s subsequent solo or comparing the lead trumpet playing on “ Channel One Suite “ with Buddy’s band in 1968 by Al Porcino to the band’s 1986’s final version with Eric Miyashiro lead trumpet work.

I hoped you could tell in the writing or the original post that I have great admiration for the players that encompassed the “ New York “ scene in the 50,60’s, 70’s and 80’s and the excellance they achieved in the volume of work they accomplished. I truly believed they considered themselves professionals playing the trumpet for a living was a noble endeveor and they played and acted accordingly. They always seemed to be able to help an aspiring player find their way as Bernie Glow's menoting of" Saturday's Night Lives " origianl trumpet player, Alan Rubin. ( Alan actually was given a gold-plated Bach 72 from Bernie Glow’s estate )
I’ve been told over and over that the player’s in New York would always give you a chance, but then it was up to you. That’s a very traditional “Old –School “way of thinking having felt once you had “made it “ it was time to help younger players. I believe encouragement and “a helping hand “was a way of “giving back “ to their mentors, keeping the tradition alive, that helped establish previous , present and new generations.

Of course, with the advent of technology and reduced budgets for live musicians affecting the work scene on both coasts drastically and dramatically, helping a new player in town is much harder when you’re trying to fill your own calendar both for commercial and classical players. An additional drawback is getting playing experience. which becomes harder and harder, to mature as a player

When Stevie Wonder commissioned the Kertsweil ( the first sampling synthesizer ) in 1983 and dropped his traveling horn section and then the advent of the EVI wind synthesizer a couple of years later, ( which actually started to sound like a live musician because of the use of human breathing) and now whole movie and TV scores being done totally electronically, the writing started to be noticed on the wall. The scene doesn’t look like it will recover any time soon, but I always stay positive that a fine, well versed ,
energetic musician can always do what he loves.

I think I’ll listen to Mr. Wilmer Wise fantastic trumpet playing on Placido Domingo’s version of “ Man of La Mancha “ next. What a treat.

Larry

MPM

Great post! (particularly the original one!)

Another trumpet player from NYC doing a lot of work in the 50's & 60's, who a lot of people don't know of, Jim Sedlar. He plays a Bach 43, Bach 7D mpc. Jim is on a few of the old Command LP's we love so much, and played trumpet, on & off, on The Tonight Show in NYC when Doc was playing in the section, and when he (Doc) took over as band leader.

He mentions that even back then, you needed to be able to sit down (whether it was live or on a studio date) and be prepared to "read", and play the style of the music appropriatly. We've never really talked "East vs West Coast" ... but he did say that when he was a young man in NYC the guys doing most of the commercial oriented things had to have a certain sound! Frosk, Glow, Royal, Severinsen, Davis etc (all the guys you mentioned) had that sound. That's what the producers, writers, engineers wanted to hear. "You had to have that sound if you wanted to work" a Sedlar quote.

(just my 1/2 cent contribution to a great thread)

JackD

This was a very interesting thread. Thanks to all!

That quote from Bernie Glow ("You have to show how good the music is. How good you are is of little worth unless you can demonstrate how good the music is.") is one I'm sure I'll keep reminding myself of.

It is so great (and very humbling) to have to so many experienced players posting here.

From an eager student,

Thanks.

psalt

There is a link between the established guys such as Bernie Glow and the newer players such as Jon Faddis and that is Marvin Stamm who arrived in NY in 1966 and the great Alan Rubin who was making a name for himself in the late 1960's. These guys had the orchestral approach to sound ( especially the way they played short notes in a ringing manner) but they had the appropriate time feel to 16th notes ( swung in some instances and even in others) It was a bit like the Chicago Symphony trumpet section playing rock n roll.
I once heard at a recording session, Jon Faddis playing lead over Marvin Stamm, Lou Soloff and Marky Marckiewicz. He certainly did not have a narrow penetrating sound but rather a beautifully sweet blending timbre that sounded like a harmonic at the top of the overall sound. This approach to sound had been consistent with all the New York studio players going way back to Charlie Margulis and Chris Griffin through to Bernie Glow, Alan Rubin, Jon Faddis etc.
Any comments?
Peter Salt

Larry Gianni

Hi all.

Peter

If you listen to Jon on the first Thad Jones/ Mel Lewis live album that Jon played lead trumpet on when he was just 19. You will hear a very young, raucous , “ Rough around the Edges “ , passionate, intense , “ Over the Top “ Jon Faddis setting the room on fire with his exciting lead playing and “ In your face “ sound. This is the Jon Faddis I’m referring to in my original post. In my opinion, Jon has a very distinct sound that is easily distinguishable from most lead trumpet players, which was not the norm in the early days of the 70’s New York music scene.

I my opinion, I have really never heard Jon sound , even today , with any qualities that would be associated with “ Traditional Bach Trumpet Players “ sound even when he switched from his Schilke B6L-b ( custom 4 ½ ounce beryllium bell ) and 6a4a, 6a4-72 , which he played from 1970 to 1985 to his Schilke S 42 ( the Schilke S series was an attempt to get more of the Bach customers to play Schilke’s ) and a 13 a/b 4 72bb custom schilke mouthpiece made by Scott Laskey when Scott was at Schilke. He now plays a 13 rim, 6a4a cup, 26 throat, 39L heavy weight made both by Schilke and Scott Laskey of Laskey mouthpiece. ( Jon was kind enough to have sent me a copy of both these mouthpieces when he was playing them )

I’ve told this story before how both Jon and I ,growing up in the SF bay area ,took lessons form the same teachers, John Coppola and Billy Catelano. ( All Italian trumpet players in the SF bay area took lessons from these guys and for the longest time I thought Jon was Italian, but he didn’t use his hands when he talked and that gave him away. )

With Mr. Catalano , I would follow Jon’s lesson and we would exchange pleasantries as we passed in the hall or packed / un-packed our trumpets. Even then, Jon had this great gift and half my lesson time was spent sweeping the paint chips that had flown off the newly painted walls from the previous week so I could find my seat.

This of course is only my opinion and , of course, value yours along with every other member's contribution to the site. Maybe we can just agree to disagree on this one.

I do have a album of Frank Sinatra and Quincy Jones using a large new York orchestra called oddly " LA is my Lady " were Jon Faddis, Lew Soloff, Alan Rubin, Joe Newman are the trumpet section and on this album, which is also on Video tape called " Sinatra, Portrait of an Album " which I suggest you all try to get and watch Jon does fit in to the New York sound as well as I've ever heard him.

Larry

PS: I have a friend Bob Coassin ( former Kenton Lead trumpet player ) playing in Australia now, do you know him?

MPM

Larry,

Bob Coassin ... doesn't he work the James Last tours?

Larry Gianni

Mike,

I'm not sure, but I think so. I know that Derek Watkins’s was ill for a summer tour ( 2003 ) that James Last did and Chuck and Bobby Findley did the European tour.

I happened to run into Bobby and he told me this personally so I know this part to be true.

Bob Coassin may be Derek's replacement. Maybe someone for “Over the Pond “can help us out. James Last is a real favorite of mine and Bobby says he has always been very appreciative of a really good trumpet section and likes to feature them in his performance.

When Bob played with Kenton, He was one of their best ( circa 1975 ) and I believe he replaced John Harner. He played a large bore Meha Besson ( French ) at the time with a " Maynard " type shallow V mouthpiece, but since his stay in Los Angeles and Germany, he now plays a more conventional set-up of a Calicchio 1s/2 with a Reeves 43 / 69 piece.

I heard the Kenton Band live , at an outdoor concert in San Francisco with Bob playing and his rendition of “ Send in the Clowns ‘ , in my opinion, actually bested the great recording of another Calicchio player, John Harner.

I met Bob when he lived in Los Angeles and was a frequent visitor to the Calicchio factory. What a great player in the “ Al Porcino “ tradition of lead trumpet work. Nice, big sound that filled the room.
He has a cousin that lives in Conn. , that is a frequent TH contributor, that may see this post and be able to help out with more BC info.

Larry

MPM

Larry,

Yes ... I have traded a mpc with the "cousin" in CT ... He said Bob plays a bent 43WES that Chuck gave him. He too likes the bend in the mpc. Bob is in the trumpet section on the tour Chuck was featured playing "Nature Boy". In the video Bob appears to be playing a Calicchio too. HA