Tootsall

Larry, I happened to catch the James Last show from 02(?) I think it was when Derek was playing the show. Great player...first time I'd ever heard of him. I also saw the show last year (PBS uses it during their annual fund raiser) when Chuck played. If you have to have a sub...what a sub! He took the house down with some of his improv.

I've since gone out and purchased the 2CD set of James Last titled "Seduction". Some very wonderful music on that set. (from the TV shows it looks like about as "fun" a bunch of players enjoying themselves on the stand as you could get). Sure wish there were some credits for the musicians however...even though there was probably quite a "mix 'n' match" for all the different tracks.

It's weird...I remember my parents listening to James Last at least 40 years back ("Walk in the Black Forest"?). The man has got longevity (even though there are apparently those people who seem to think that it's demeaning to the musicians to have to "perform like trained seals"....which I'm sure they aren't!)

Larry Gianni

Hi,

All trumpet players should listen to James Last and his Orchestra. If you havn't out their in cyber-trumpet land, shame on you.

His orchestra is of the Mancini / Kempert / Bacharach / Ted Heath variety only hipper and with better arrangements for the brass sections.

His CD's are always on E-bay, so do yourself a favor a pick one up especially if it has " Trumpets " in the title of the album, it won't be the only one you get, after you listen it, you'll want more.

Larry

Check out Trumpetstuff.com / Derek Watkins / Mac Arthur Park video, that is a James Last Concert . Double D at the end of Derek's solo.

lonelyangel

Hi Larry, first of all can I say what a fantastic post this is. It makes great reading, very educational, comprehensive and written with passion.for the subject. I think TM is proving to be an invaluable resource thanks to the thought provoking and knowledgeable contributions of people such as yourself - I hope it continues in the same vein. With your permission I would like to print off some copies to keep in my trumpet case and pass around to my colleagues in studios and on gigs. Maybe It will inspire some more of the London crowd to get on board and join in this forum.

I must say that I found myself sharing much of the ethos of the East Coast style as you described it. Maybe that's because London is closer to NY than to LA. In fact I am going to talk to some of my elders and betters to see if I can persuade them to write a similar article about the history and the development of the British school of commercial trumpet playing. It might make an interesting comparison with what you have written.

I know that in the 50s and 60s, many of the young turks of the British jazz scene tried to get gigs on the transatlantic liners just for the opportunity to hear bands and buy records on their stop-overs. The influences they brought back with them permeated the UK scene and led to a cross fertilisation with the old British traditions coming out of the brass band world creating a sound and style unique to these shores.

The influence of the current US players is just as strong here today but I think you will agree that there is something a little different in the writing and playing of such artists as Kenny Wheeler, Derek Watkins, Henry Lowther, Guy Barker et al which is essentially British or European in flavour.
As for myself, I am lucky enough to have played with many of the people you listed when they have been on tour in London and Europe and have made several trips to NY myself to listen to and study with some of the leading lights. I hope to visit LA again in the near future to continue working on my solo recording project. I’ll be sure to look you up when I get over there.

As far as the James Last question goes. It is true that Derek was recovering from an operation a couple of years back and missed some touring work. He was on crutches for months after rupturing a tendon in his ankle by tripping over in the dark back stage. I believe that at that time Chuck Findley covered for him, although h also did some touring with the band as a soloist more recently. Bob has been a member of the trumpet section for several years and I have had the pleasure of meeting him on several occasions - he is a great guy to hang out with - look him up if you are ever in Oz.

Thanks once again for the post. Keep them coming. All the best, Noel.

Larry Gianni

Hi Noel,

Thanks you so much for your kind words and your participation in the forum. I hope more English/European player start posting and giving a different view ( or same veiw ) on the subject talked about here or any subject.

About Derek Watkins,

I remember as a kid watching the Tom Jones Show on TV and wondering who was playing lead trumpet and what were those notes he was hitting. Fantastic. I learned later that DerekWatkin’s had been Tom's lead trumpet player at the time, and correct me if I’m wrong, also did the TV show.

A friend of mine, Roger Ingram, took over the Tom Jones tour from Derek when Derek left (Roger was only 18 or 19 years old, at the time, wow!!) told me that Derek has an upper lip, that is somewhat split and he can get a small portion of it vibrating really rapidly, so he change very slightly in his embouchure and can play very cleanly in the altissimo upper register. I think on the Trumpetstuff.com / Derek Watkins/ Mac Arthur Park video you can hear him play very loudly and cleanly to A above double C, and I hear a different intensity to the notes like he shifted gears some how.

Have you heard anything about this. (Sorry, I sound like a little kid with this question)

When I did clinics for Calicchio in the 80's I had the opportunity to meet the trumpet section for Elton John that was touring with him and stopped in LA to get new trumpets. Because they were playing into mikes, with a loud rock situation, they wanted to try to get more of a big, bright, fat, contemporary “West Coast " sound so they came in to the factory and I helped them make a decision on the combination that best suited them.
You probably know them, Simon Gardner and Paul Spong. Boy, did I envy there job being a big Elton John Fan, ever since he added brass sections to his music using the " Tower of Power " horn section n the 70's


Later I heard from Paul and Simon when they were with the group “Wham “and George Michael. They played on the Wham hit “Wake me up before we go-go” with that great little lick up to a hi f# in the middle. I've also met to other Enlgish players when they were playing on tour in Los Angeles, ( at different times ) Guy Barker and Kevin Robinson. Both fantastic players.
Another English commercial player I met in my travels was Ivan Julian, who I also believe worked with Elton but earlier, maybe the 70's.

Anyway, back to my point,

I agree the” English” commercial trumpet sound closely emulates the early New York sound in that it was bigger, fuller, disciplined, had a quasi-legit flavor, not obtrusive in its nature. I do have Ted Heath CD’s, John Dankworth’s big band albums and Maynard’s 1971/72 band featuring a trumpet section of John Donnelly, Alan Downey, Martin Drover and John Huckridge that tend to dis-prove the above mentioned opinion of the “ English “ sound. But all in all. I agree with you.

Also, I’m told by some of the players in town that do a lot of movie soundtrack recording, the player in the BBC Phil. ( and other BBC music ensembles ) prefer and still the use Bb trumpets , instead of higher pitched trumpets, for their movie soundtrack recordings and live playing engagements unlike their American counter-parts who universally prefer the C trumpet. That sort of says it all.

One Request for the “Yanks ".

Can you explain, for the American trumpet community, the different duties and roles of the BBC ensembles? America really has no government sponsored music ensembles (maybe, the Lincoln center for the arts ensemble, could be called one)

Thanks’s Noel

BBC Philharmonic Orchestra – Phillip Addinall – prin. trumpet
BBC Concert Orchestra – David McCallum – prin. trumpet
BBC SSO – Kate Moore – 1st trumpet
BBC Symphony Orchestra - Rod Franks - prin. trumpet

Larry

romey1

out

lonelyangel

Hi Larry, posting on this forum is a pleasure - I know I’m getting more out of it than I’m putting in, but thanks all the same.

As far as your question about Derek - I know how you feel. He makes most of us feel as exited as a little kid especially when you have the opportunity to play next to him. I’ve been working with Derek for many years now and keenly observing how he plays. I must say that if I knew exactly what he was doing I’d be trying to do it too. It is certainly true that he has the ability to use two if not three embouchure settings depending what he is playing. These different set ups all overlap of course but when he prepares to play a real high phrase there is a noticeable realignment as he raises the angle of the horn, lowers the mouthpiece and tucks his chin in. The result is always deadly accurate, graceful and exhilarating. I think the techniques he employs are his own discoveries and may not work for everybody and you have to bear in mind that he has immense natural talent. I often think that the trumpet is like a toy to him, he can do anything with it and conveys such joy through his music that is inspirational and infectious.

Yes I know Simon Gardner and Paul Spong very well. They are amongst a group of players who broke into the scene 5 to 10 years before I did. I would include players like Guy Barker, Steve Sidwell, Stuart Brooks and John Barclay amongst their number. All these players emerged from the National Youth Jazz Orchestra - a kind of hothouse training ground for players in the UK. I also paid my dues in that band along with most of my contemporaries and the up and coming guys in town. Along with younger players like Mike Lovatt and Pat White and the vastly experienced Tony Fisher and Henry Lowther these are the people that I usually expect to see on studio dates and live shows.

Simon and Paul, together with Steve Sidwell, have been on a world tour with Robbie Williams lately. Maybe you have seen the video of the live show from the Royal Albert Hall where they were joined by Derek and Mike Lovatt in the trumpet section of an 80 piece orchestra - recreating the tribute to Sinatra album called Swing When You’re Winning (that title is a play on words from a common football chant used to taunt the opposing teams fans after their team falls behind in a game, “you only SING when you’re winning” ). I think the original album was mainly recorded in LA at the old Capitol studios.

I fear that this is all getting a bit off topic so I’ll try to be brief and maybe post elsewhere on some of the broader subjects you raise. One thing though, Alan Downey is considered by many to be the most exiting lead player this country produced. You may know that he is also a wonderful writer and arranger - many people cite his ‘Give it One’ as being their favourite Maynard track.
Sadly Alan has suffered from ill health for several years now and is no longer active as a player - which is pretty much a tragedy.

If I might be so bold I’d like to recommend another more contemporary British Big Band album for you. One is the sublime ‘Music for Large and Small Ensembles’ by the Ken Wheeler band. This was recorded on the ECM label in 1990 to mark the occasion of Kens 60th birthday. It is an all star band featuring Pete Erskine and Dave Holland amongst others and has the wonderful trumpet section of Derek Watkins, Alan Downey, Henry Lowther and George Hamer. Perhaps there is the makings of another post here as well.

Yes, B flat trumpet is still the weapon of choice amongst most orchestral players and most definitely on film sessions. Many British players have never owned a C trumpet. More common is the kind of hybrid four valve E flat instrument, usually fitted with a B flat bell and a pitch finder - although that is strictly used by the orchestral players and not by the commercial guys like myself.

I’ll put up a post regarding the BBC somewhere else once I’ve done a little research.

Sorry for the length of the post, it’s dificult to stop once you get going.

Cheers, Noel.

Tootsall

Noel....then don't stop!

JackD

Noel, about NYJO, I know one guy who is in it (he's 14 I think, and a seriously good soloist), and I would really like to try out for it, but I'm a bit confused about their system of selecting players - do you just turn up to a rehearsal and sit in? I would ask the guy I know but he's in the US at the moment.

Sorry about taking this off-topic!

Groovyhorn

Noel,
last year I watched a concert of "Incognito". They had a great 3-piece hornsection with Dominic Glover on trumpet. He has a really fat projecting sound. I thought he was playing a heavy model Taylor trumpet. Is he one of the coming guys in the UK?
By the way; I like this band very much!!

lonelyangel

Hi Groovyhorn, yes Dominic plays a Taylor but no he is not really 'up and coming' (although he is a bit younger than me!) - he is pretty well established as a strong soloist and horn section player. He has held down the trumpet chair with the James Taylor Quartet for several years and recently took over from Kevin Robinson in Incognito. I believe Dominic studied at Berkley and he is another guy who paid his dues in NYJO.

It's great to receive feedback and comments from everyone but I am a bit afraid that I may have 'polluted' this excellent thread started by Mr Gianni. Baring that in mind, I will reply to Jack via PM and will shortly post a couple of threads to provide information about the scene here in the UK.

Larry, I can't wait to read Part Two and have the opportunity to broaden my knowledge through your insights into the West Coast traditions.

All the best, Noel.