cornetguy

also in this day and age a question has to be asked how much of what we are hearing is the "real" sound and how much is the person operating the soundboard?

I second Robin's statement to educators, I am one myself there is a lot of quality literature for jazz band that doesn't go above a high c.

kadleck

Section players are VERY important, and in many cases can make or break a lead player. There is a (often ignored) art to playing second, third and fourth trumpet!

TK

Ed Kennedy

Good support from the section is important. I'm of the school that says the section players should be a bit louder than the lead.

I have experienced the "old school" lead a few times. I played in Leon Merian's Florida big band. Most of the time he was out front but on occasion he would stand behind the trumpet section and play lead. It was like sombody took the voltage lever and pushed it to "11." It wasn't just decibels, it was indescribably exciting.

Years ago when I worked at Schilke's in Chicago, John Howell would visit us between shows at the Studebaker Theater. He was playing a Bach 25L with a 1C at the time. I asked him haw he cut through the band on such big equipment. He replied that he didn't cut through the band, he "covered the band." He and Leon were old friends, by the way, and cut from the same cloth conceptwise.

mfhorn63

No offense, but I don't think you really got what I was talking about.

The problem today is that very few band directors are jazz players, and consequently, their bands show it. You have to teach jazz specific methods, and help the student differentiate between what they do in concert band or orchestra, and jazz. I find many university players nowadays who don't know the differences, say, in articulations between the disciplines. This always comes out in performance. As you say, the groove is it- but without proper grounding in the jazz idiom, the groove isn't there. Rob Mcconnell once remarked that dynamics and articulations in swing tunes should be unnecessary- you should just know how to do it. For the most part, I agree. But finding 13 college horn players who feel that is rare now, especially at regional colleges and universities. That's why I am building a band made up of educators and former pros to work with the better players in my area.

I feel that the current approach to concert/orchestra playing is to demand less of the principal players, especially in the winds, than in the past. Jazz ensemble playing is heavily dependent on lead playing, and today's typical section player does not listen as well as he/she should. In addition to the lack of experience in many instrumental educators, young players frequently do not listen to their rep in jazz. They are only familiar with what they are or have played. 20 years ago, when secondary music was alive and well, it was different. Sure, there are always exceptions- but I meet and hear very few musicians anymore who are coming out of high school with a strong grounding in jazz styles. Here in Colorado, jazz isn't even treated as a "serious" music discipline by the state. That's why the really strong university jazz programs are at private schools, like University of Denver's Lamont School.

Incidentally, if you talk to anyone who has been around for a while (25 years or more), F above high C is high, and the G above it is double. It is common to the jazz vernacular that G above high C is Double G. And yes, it used to be the standard- still is, mostly. Except for Goodwin's charts. It must be fun having had Wayne Bergeron to write for.

It's not my intent to begin an argument about details- there is still the ideal way to teach this, and the only thing missing in today's environment is exposure to it. My students listen to everything from Fletcher Henderson to Rob Parton, and I am currently developing a fake book for lead players that addresses the stylistic issues of playing a wide range of ensemble stuff.

And you're right, it is about form and groove, rather than testosterone. But if you go back and re-read my post, you'll see that the emphasis is not on range, but on leadership. Leadership is based upon a well-rounded knowledge of jazz styles- don't play like Stan Mark on a Gil Evans tune- don't play like Joe Garland on a John LaBarbera tune, etc. Back in "the day," lead trumpet players did stick out, but they also had that sensitivity for style. Today, I find more lead players who have some range, and want to use it everywhere, and will, unless they have a director who is willing to channel that ability appropriately. I know of a very gifted player here who has incredible ability, but he squanders it by playing his lead parts more like a soloist than a section leader, and his director allows it to happen. As a result, the band sounds sloppy. The greatest compliment I ever got for my lead playing was after I joined an above-average band, and after I "led with my horn," received comments on how "tight" the band sounded. To me, this is what a lead player should hope for: a stylistically consistent sound from top to bottom, and lead trumpet is where it starts. For more on this, read anything written on the subject by Al Porcino, Conrad Gozzo, or Buddy Childers.

I realize this strayed a bit from the original thread, but as an educator, I feel compelled to make myself understood.

mfhorn63

This is very true about sound. We all know of live performances that pale next to studio cuts. Just check out anything from Stan Kenton during the Mike Vax years. For live cuts, I prefer Buddy Rich and Maynard (search his videos on You Tube and Daily Motion). Strong, balanced sections not overpowered by lead.

Second point, see if you can find a Lenny Neihaus chart called "Home Cookin'". Lenny's charts always lay really well, and are technically challenging without always being "off the horn" for decent HS bands.

email me if you can't find this tune.

mfhorn63

ANOTHER very good point. A good Jazz book player can spell lead in a demanding set, and I think that it takes as much physical effort to play good fourth as to play lead most of the time. As a lead player almost exclusively throughout my life, I have always loved playing in sections with strong players where I could spread lead duties around. It enhances morale and confidence, and I love a good fourth part after playing something like "Channel One Suite"!

Annie

AMEN!


I'm curious to know why and where the idea that you'd "barely speak" on a fourth part would come from - and of what situation would that arise. It almost sounds like a classical approach, but even then the lower parts need to come out a bit to balance with first in that genre. I always learned that the lower parts need to be loud so the first can comfortably rest on top - and it seems like the majority here are in the same boat.

I've learned that through being both a section player and a lead player - I've only had a short experience, but I've had a great education. I go to a small school, but will soon graduate - I was lucky to have the teachers I had there. Nothing like being taught by the freelancing jazz pros - it's a totally different take than the cats that strictly teach for a living and do little playing. I hope when I'm a teacher I can follow their lead.

screamingmorris

I am 52 years old.
I first became aware of jazz trumpet, Maynard Ferguson, Bill Chase, etc in the early 1970's.

I *always* heard the G above High C referred to as High G until I started frequenting these Internet groups last year and I discovered a small number of people here on the Internet who insist on calling it Double G.
For 35 years I *always* heard Double C referred to as the beginning of the Doubles so that Double G would be above Double C.

Please explain why in your nomenclature the Doubles would start on a G in the *middle* of an octave.

Edit:
For conventional naming of notes in trumpet playing, see BbTrumpet.com:

"The Highs go from High C 2nd ledger line above the staff up to B 5th ledger line above the staff.
The Double register starts with Double High C on top of the 5th ledger line above the staff."
Trumpet Lessons


- Morris

Solar Bell

Well, I have been around for a lot more than 25 years. (I am 55)

I have played lead many years. My first mentor was Chuck Peterson, from the Tommy Dorsey, and Artie Shaw's bands among others.

Here in Detroit, and MOST other places, G above high C is just a G, sorry....

Double C starts the Doubles, Double G is ABOVE Double C.


-cw-

rowuk

Thanks for the clarification. You are right, I did miss some things!

As far as educators being jazz saavy, I think that depends....... The span of player quality is very great and building any program depends on support from the school, faculty and parents. If that is not in place, even Wynton (an incredible educator!) will have trouble finding the "groove". At university level, we see a different set of challenges. One would expect that there are tons of highly motivated students and extremely qualified faculty. Judging from the questions that come up in the various posts here, that does not seem to be the universal case. I don't think that there is a problem finding qualified musicians (there are enough unemployed.....), getting them hired and training the next generation seems to be the problem. We still need a commitment from the schools to make this work!

The idea of getting educators together is an honorable venture. Keep us informed how it goes and what "works". It could be a model for elsewhere!