Mikey

"There is a sucker born every minute"



- P.T. Barnum

Larry Gianni

Hi all,

Jim New and the whole Kanstul team have really brought these Monette's and other pieces that are either out of production or hard to get to the trumpet masses at an affordable price and no " Svengali " to deal with.

Kanstul has always been on the cutting edge of technology in every aspect. Trumpets, flugels, cornets, marching brass , tuba's , etc. check out the website , it's enormous with both in the variety of the products and the amount of description and info it provides.

The technologically ingenious " Mouthpiece Comparator " which we all now take somewhat for granted was done by manipulating CAD 2000 programs , which is an aerospace designing tool and adapting it to mouthpieces, just for all of us to sit and overlay our favorite pieces.

Jim New actually wrote the program that " tweaked " the original program and then adapted it so the " overlay " function " could be used. I think this is remarkable, I just bough a DVD player for my home studio system and figuring that out is driving me nuts. ( I'm also told on good authority that Jim , did all the programming of this very complex computer system on his own time at night's and weekends because Jim is also the Kanstul Plant Manager, and has all the responsibility that goes along with that job and couldn't find time in his days at the plant to sit and develop the " Mouthpiece Comparator " Again, just for a bunch of us trumpet players?

I didn't see anyone for a different line of mouthpieces that introduced us to the now infamous " Alpha Angle " get anywhere close to presenting the finicky trumpet community with this sort of technology. Just the same old call me, e-mail me, buy this mouthpiece , no you can;t return it kind of stuff.

Kanstul's has also invested over $ 500,000 ( 1/2 a million dollars ) in the CNC technology that scans the piece , encrypts the codes to a digital format and then transfers it to the computer driven CNC machine that actually cuts the rim, cup throat and back bore and now can copy and cut the exterior blank of choice as well, did I hear STC-3 anyone? Do you know how many mouthpieces you have to sell to break even on a situation like this.

Plus, I haven't talked about the highly skilled technician needed to operate the CNC / Scanning computer driven lathes and laser scanners. This kind of personal doesn't come cheap, but all this machinery is just a bunch or circuit boards and metal without the highly skilled operator at the helm. Again , more investment for a very low profit margin item.

All this just for trumpet players. Do you realize not so long ago, getting a copy of a mouthpiece , by the top mouthpiece makers , was done with either a lead template or a machine that looks like the one that copies keys at Home Depot were you put the original on one side and run a pointer over the variations and divots and a duplicate is being cut right next to it. Rims and cups were the easy part, backbores, "the Mystery Part " of the mouthpiece was all done by hand. Inserting a metal dowel, seeing where it hit the original wall, cutting it down very slowly, doing this over and over until it matched on all points,it was all done by feel and the touch of the craftsman., but if you took off to much, you had to start all over again.

The metal dowel ( cut long way in half ) was marked with ink and were the ink came off when it was inserted, then the mouthpiece maker would shave a couple of .001 off until it fit , doing this by feel , over and over trying to make a snug fit of the original backbore. Almost impossible to get an exact duplicate. Bob Reeves was the master of this ( he had the patience of Mother Theresa )art, still couldn't guarantee and exact copy. All this doesn't sound very scientific does it and it wasn't.

I'm writing so that we all don't take what Kanstul is trying to do for granted. If you like the original better, great ,buy the original ( it will be in a drawer in a month, trust me ), but if you want to try a " clone" at more than a 50% - 60% price differential,( plus a Prana backbore for the same price which makes it 2/3 rds less than the original Monette's ) then
Kanstul is the place to go.

if Kanstul never got into the mouthpiece game, they still have the best trumpet line going and none of the head-aches that go along with making mouthpieces for all of us. Mouthpieces are a low profit ( unless your Dave Monette ) item for any manufacturer, but it always comes with it's problems ( mainly us )

Larry,

Oh, before I forget, Charles is one of the nicest guys you'll meet in this business and has filled a very big pair of shoes at Kanstul's ( he's only been National Sales Manager for little over a year now ) working over and above what anyone has expected.( again, I get this on very good authority ). Charles is very approachable and will always give you 100 % when trying to help you out. Thanks for all your hard work and if you didn't know , Charles is a very good trumpet player himself ( he was pounding out these arpeggio's up to " Double C ' one day I walked in on the ZKT 1600 " Bergoeron " model, I thought Charlie Davis was in their because I could hear all this great playing from the parking lot ) so he knows what your talking about when you speak to him. He's always been a great help to me and I'm a " Numero Uno pain in the a** " ( " hide , here comes Gianni with his digial calipers again to show us where we might be .001 off on this trumpet leadpipe opening or that backbore, lock the doors and turn out the lights before he see's us " ) when I get a chance to visit any Manufacturer's showroom. Great work Charles, keep it up.



Larry

Mikey

In all honesty, it was only a matter of time before Zig raised the price on the "M" clones. The general feedback from people using these is that they play exactly like the originals. Of course the people at the "M" factory will tell you the Kanstul copies don't get the "fine tuning and tweaking" that they give the originals........

Just curious: do the Kanstul copies come with the "speed bumps" inside the cup?

Mikey

Gnostic

:)

Kanstulbrass

Yes, the price of our M Series mouthpieces is going up. However, the price increase is not limited to the M Series, as our modular mouthpieces and some of our vintage replicas are going up as well. The reason is simply that we have not increased the price of our mouthpieces in years. Production is up on our fine brasswinds, and the time and effort it takes to machine these mouthpieces necessitates the price increase. The price increase will not take place until February 1st, but our website will not be updated until Monday or Tuesday.

We hope you understand that a price increase will enable us to continue production, and to continue supplying the brass community with exceptional products.

In Larry Gianni's post above, he pretty much spells out some of things that I cannot say (whether it's due to my lack of technical expertise, or because I should remain...um...politically correct while in the forums) Larry has the experience and knowledge that lend him strong credibility in person and in the forums.

As well, thank you Larry for the kind words. You are a real "nuts and bolts" kind of guy and I appreciate the bits of tech info that I get from talking to you!

bent trumpet

Whatever the price increase is, it is well worth it. Those M series pieces are really nice. They are every bit as good as the Monette. I have to admit that I was sceptical when I first heard of them, but now that I have tried them, I am a believer.

trickg

Call me crazy, but wouldn't it have been easier to duplicate a backbore by simply plugging the cup end and filling the backbore of the mouthpiece with a molding resin, thus making a casting of the backbore that could then be removed? Then, the craftsman could make a backbore cutter based on the demensions of the casting. I have a hard time believing that a master machinist and tool and die maker would actually do a trial and error method of inserting a piece of round bar stock over and over again, and shaving it off, little by little. There is no way to gurantee accuracy that way, but since backbores are tapered outward from the throat, making a casting would make perfect sense because it would in all aspects be a perfect fit of the inside of the backbore.

Then again, I'm not either a master machinist or a tool and die maker so I wouldn't really know.

Mikey

Patrick, that makes sense to me. But now that Kanstul has the equipment to digitally copy a $315.00 mouthpiece, and from what I have read (I have not tried them myself), they seem to play pretty good.

I can only imagine what Mr. M. is thinking and saying these days........





Larry, I second the kudos for Jim New and Charles Hargett. Two great guys who know a lot about making great horns and mouthpieces.


mike

Larry Gianni

Hi TrickG

You know, I asked Zig that same question about leadpipe copying, I wanted him to copy a lead pipe on a pre-war Meha I had that had rot problems.

He told me that with any resin or plastic fill he's tried , and he's got stuff from friends in the aerospace community, when you pull them out either they stretch slightly ( were talking .001 of an inch dimensions ) or the don't hold the exact configuration. It's the removing that is the trick part.

With a computer scan, the computer will also calculate the dimensions again in .001 of an inch, with any irregularity of the cut is found ( slight gouge by the reamer, scratch by cleaning tool, etc ) and calculate the numbers that upon duplication will either fill in the metal void ( gouge , scratch )or protrusion ( burr ) and give you a perfect dimension with no human frailties to it. This is really great if you scratch the rim and want an original dupe made that can be threaded onto the original underpart.

You should see what they go thru to copy a leadpipe, you need the patience of Mother Theresa ( rest in peace ) to handle that plus the 2 days it takes just to get the right accuracy using measuring devices at increments of .001 of an inch.

Let's say they do get a accurate backbore mold. No what. You would need the right technology in machinery to trace the mold , again within .001 tolerance, that would make the exact cutter to cut the backbore and a machine to double check the cut. All computer driven CNC style lathers , plus operators. What do you think that would cost?. Just to get a backbore.

Maybe some other engineers in the group like my new friend Tootsall ( who I know is an engineer, plus a really good writer ) or my good friend Thevor ( again, very intellegent with great communicative skils )could comment on all this. They may better communicate the difficulties of copying opening and closing circular demensions in cyclindrcal openings and making dies and cutter to re-produce then exactly and the cost involved both in machinery, personnel and time.

Larry

Mikey

I have tried making a mold of a backbore using Cerrosafe. This is something gunsmiths use to make a cast of a rifle chamber. It can best be described as a soft type of lead when hard. You plug one end of the hole you are going to measure, pour it in, and after it hardens, you just pop it out iwth a wooden dowel. Problem was, to my naked eye, I could not see much difference between the 2 backbores I was trying to compare (a 7 and a 24).

Some of the high-end gunsmiths are also getting digital scanning machines and CNC lathes, so Cerrosafe may be a thing of the past too....



M.