Pedal C

Morris, I've explained myself three times and you're still completely missing my point. I'm not wasting any more time on this.

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"The oboe's A is to make sure we still play it 1 and 2" - Bud Herseth

"One way or another, every patient stops bleeding." - Scrubs

Pedal C

Ok, sorry about that...it's been a long day. Sorry to be a jerk.

I went through years of studies with bad fundamentals while I played mouthpiece after mouthpiece and modified my horns over and over when none of those things were the problem. I had some bad physical habits (that I had no idea about) and some equipment masked it better than others. I eventually got straightened out (well, it's always an ongoing process) and I've observed way more students with bad fundamentals than good. I guess that's way I like to leave changing equipment until a time when you can be more sure that it's really the equipment's fault. Since this is always different for everyone, when it's over the internet and I can't hear someone play, I play it kind of safe when it come to suggesting a change. And I stand my my opinion that a 7C (Bach or otherwise) is MOST LIKELY a ok mouthpiece to get someone to the point when they can decide (with a teacher) what they need.

Anyway...no hard feelings...we're all on the same side here!

Jason.

__________________
"The oboe's A is to make sure we still play it 1 and 2" - Bud Herseth

"One way or another, every patient stops bleeding." - Scrubs

lakerjazz

screamingmorris,
I agree with you to an extent, but the guy is a 7th grader(I'm assuming a 1-2 year player), and it's not as i a 7c will stun his development. If you do decide to make any move OP, I suggest switching to a 3c, but don't go for the narrow jazz mouthpieces. As many have already suggested, it's not good in the long term. You'll hit those notes eventually, trust me, but just don't switch to a jazz mthpc.

On a side ote, I remember that in n7th grade, I had to change my entire embouchure, and I was worried about playing high notes, but not the sound! I ended up listening to my teacher and changing my embouchoure to put both lips inside the mouthpiece(I left oe out before and produced a slightly unclear sound), and I got a much better tone. I had lost all of my range at first, but as I progressed,it came back almost instantly an got even higher than before. The point is that "the high note game" is not really important. You might compete with your friends on who can play higher, but the audience can hear the person that sounds better.

__________________
'50 Olds Recording-Los Angeles

screamingmorris

For some players a Bach 7C is the perfect mouthpiece.
For other players a Bach 7C is a mediocre mouthpiece.
For some players a Bach 7C is a terrible mouthpiece.

For me the Bach 7C was a terrible mouthpiece.
Back in 7th-9th grade band I was one of the worst players in band.
After I dropped out of band a friend had me try other mouthpieces and I did much better.
The Bach 7C *had* been stunting my growth as a player. A lot.

A couple of years ago I briefly owned a trumpet that came with 2 extra mouthpieces, a 1960's Bach 7C and a 1960's Bach 7C-S.
I tried them and I *still* had *big* trouble with them after all these years.
I can play a Bach 7 (no letter) rather well and sometimes use one.
I often play a Bach 7E.
But there is something about a Bach 7C cup that causes me big problems with cracked tones and poor range.
I can do better on a Bach 7 (no letter).
In fact, I can play several notes higher on a Bach 7 (no letter) than on a Bach 7C.
For me to switch from a Bach 7C to a Bach 7 (no letter) to get better range certainly is *not* an example of a player looking to use a "cheater" mouthpiece.
(I recently tried a Bach 7DW and found it almost unplayable, overwhelmingly stuffy, even though Bach 7E is one of my favorite mouthpieces; I don't know why I had problems with the Bach 7DW, unless the wide rim was interfering with my correct mouthpiece placement)

BTW, I am presently using a Conn 7C on my cornet until my new mouthpiece arrives.
Although I do better on it than on a Bach 7C, I still have some degree of problem with it above the staff.

A poster here recommended a Bach 3C.
A Bach 3C is the same depth as a Bach 7E.
Kanstul Comparator shows that even the Bach 3B offers better support in the upper register than a Bach 7C because the Bach 3B is slightly shallower near the rim, the cup is more funnel-shaped.

I am not telling people to stay away from Bach 7C's.
I am saying that *some* people have trouble with that mouthpiece.
If a person says that he is having trouble with that mouthpiece, or with any mouthpiece, it is quite appropriate for him to try another mouthpiece.
If the poster had said that he was having trouble with a Bach 3C that he had been playing for 2 years my advice would have been the same: Try another mouthpiece.

The same goes for embouchure types.
Most players are Type 3 downstream.
So I did my best to imitate that embouchure type in my early years.
But the more I practiced the worse I became.
When I switched to Type 4 upstream the improvement was dramatic.
Type 3 downstream will not stunt most player's development.
But it *will* stunt the development of any player who was born to be a Type 4 downstream player.

There is no guarantee that the Bach 7C mouthpiece is the poster's only problem, or even the main problem.
But there is the *possibility* that it is his problem, just as he suspects.
It would do no harm, and might do him some good, to try a few other mouthpieces to see if another mouthpiece causes instant improvement.

Continuing with a mouthpiece when you know you are having problems with it makes no sense at all.

- Morris

lakerjazz

Alright,
I agree Morris, but my last recommenation would be to just stay away from the jazz mouthpieces thatare desgined for higher play. Come to think about, you probably should switch at this point. Go to your local music store and try out some schilkes, bachs, or whatever works well with you. If your local store is good, I'm sure they would advise you to stay away from the narrow, jazz mouthpieces.

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'50 Olds Recording-Los Angeles

Heavens2kadonka

I don't think anyone is telling the kid that he has to force himself to play the 7C no matter what. However, unless he is having a horrible time playing, there shouldn't be anything a little practice can help.

I didn't start on a 7C, though. :P

Started on the mouthpiece that came with my uncle's old horn: a 5C. Stuck with that piece until senior year. Then went to a gold-plated 5B.

Still kinda miss that piece!

Van

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'94 Bach Strad 37
1900 Eb Cornet

LOUD Steve Patrick 10 1/2 C
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Heavens2kadonka

But I definitely understand the way you feel against that piece, Morris.

....I cannot to this day understand how the heck someone can get gigs on a Jet-Tone Merian C!

Van

__________________
Stage 1 California Light
'94 Bach Strad 37
1900 Eb Cornet

LOUD Steve Patrick 10 1/2 C
LOUD LM93

commakozzi

This is good stuff! I don't mean to sound... well... mean, but I walked into my "un"favorite guitar and drum store the other day hoping against hope to find some decent valve oil, and I saw that they actually had a collection of Schilke mouthpieces. I'm actually considering looking at a 14A4A for piccolo soon just to see if I like it and they didn't have any, but they had a lot of other sizes (no 13s or 15s either). I asked the guy if they ever get 14A4As in and he's like "oh yeah!!! That's our top selling mouthpiece! We can't even keep them here!". I asked who usually bought them and he said it was pre-high school and high school kids! LOL!!! Now high school I can see a guy being developed enough to actually start experimenting with using a lead mouthpiece for jazz (as supplemental equipment only!!! Play other stuff on your standard mouthpiece... that's my opinion for what it's worth) or even if he/she owns a picc. But 7th and 8th graders!!??? No!!!! NO NO NO NO NO!!! There are few 7th and 8th graders in the world who are that developed at that age (there are some, but few just to be clear on that). A 7C sounds about right. If you can play a comfortable high C on your 7C, and I mean very comfortable, you might be (JUST MIGHT, most likely not be) ready for experimenting. Like someone said earlier in this thread, Herseth was using a 7C early in his professional career (I don't know this for a fact, but I do know that there are many pros that still use it or very similar pieces). Now, someone else got on to takakata for telling this guy to play a 7C for the simple fact that everyone's different (teeth structure, lip size, embouchure, etc.), but at that age and level of ability that's not really a concern yet more than developing a good embouchure set, air control and support, solid buzz technique, etc. Experimenting at that age and level of ability is, in my opinion, not advisable!

eyeshieldsuper

well, i played about 2 years as well, and use a 1c. My range extends to the 2nd g above the scale. I would recommend just practice alot!

Lezwoymn

Better yet morris, it's like telling tatakata to use one airplane seat LOL.