Clarino

Actually Manny, whent LP stated his opinion about Bush and his own political leanings he was immediately condecended to as a high school pupil who's political affiliation must be the result of being lectured at by liberal teachers. Immediately after that a high school pupil who is a Bush supporter and a young Republican stated her political opinions and was recieved warmly. Not very polite in my opinion. When someone regards another person of different political leanings as stupid/ignorant/brainwashed reasonable debate is over.

__________________
"...you have the perfect C Major chord, with blazing trumpets and inaudible strings." - Daniel Barenboim.

Manny Laureano

Clarino,

Here's what I see:

When Lazor states something it's usually very brief and not unlike a bumper sticker that is often heard over and over. I think Lara tends to go into more depth and, frankly, I like that better. It's easier to have a real discussion. You and I, for example, have had good talks for precisely that reason and it's why I can count you as a friend.

Lazor, I would love it if you would tell us some of the reasons you feel as you do about anything you want to talk about. Otherwise, it kind of becomes "drive by" statements with no follow ups. I say that to you very sincerely.

ML

rjzeller

Well, Clarino, if it seems I came across a little rough on LP I do apologize. And I will conceded that it's easier to be kindly in my treatment of another who supports my opinion.

The problem is as Manny stated -- LP posted in a very blunt manner that not only exposed the exact problem I was alluding to, but also revealed a bit of how he look sat issued.

And you might have a point if LP hadn't supported my own suggestion that the educational establishment may have much to do with his opinion. After all, it was he who stated the following:

If that is not meant to imply he agrees that the establishment influences the thinking of youth...well...I don't know what to say.

Look, I'm not meaning to insult his intelligence, and if that's how I came accross, I sincerely apologize LP. I was merely drawing a correlation where I saw one, and he seemed to agree. It's not condescending to say that someone who is in high school is someone who is in high school...

But once again, I must point out to those who refuse to read the ENTIRE context of an argument, that I never said he was a democrat or republican or that he was necessarily influenced by liberal teachers. I merely stated that it did not suprise me that he feels the way he does, given his environment. "...that's not to say you are..." I simply suggested that the environment is condusive to his way of thinking. I don't believe I ever said "Stupid/ignorant" or "brainwashed". But it's hard for you (or me) to move beyond such simplistic and banal suggestions when the argument posed is so simple to begin with.

It's much easier to respect an opinion when there is some constructive logic and reasoning supporting it. One youth on this board managed to do so, the other did not, resorting to such simple constructs as, "Are you a Republican" and "I'm a big Bush hater."

(The latter is okay, but given the context it didn't fit: "I think Kelly deserved to lose because I'm a big Bush hater." Hardly makes reasonable sense if you think about it. There's a logical disconnect there.)

Again, I really am sorry if I came down too hard on LP. I like the kid, and I've seen first hand how he's willing to listen to people and adjust. He's matured in his time on this board. If pointing out that someone is younger than you or still in high school is condescending, well, I suppose there are a LOT of condescending parents in the world. As for LP, it is interesting that he seems to be more jovial than the two who have called me to the carpet for my responses to him....

__________________
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who do not.

Lazorphaze

manny ....
sorry.
i just can't. i have no support.

Manny Laureano

Boy, do I hear you loud and clear, Lazor...

Let me tell you about how I learned to argue a point or defend a position:

by imitating my dad's yelling.

My dad is one of the most loyal, staunch people you can imagine. He's very emotional and gets fiercely protective of his opinions. In Puerto Rico, the parallel to our Democrat Party is called "El Partido Popular". That party has a long history and was borne from the suffering of many poor people. My dad has been a life-long "Popular" as he was very poor. Dirt poor, really. He saw many injustices that were unfortunately supported by the "Partido Republicano" in P.R. He holds on to the belief that neither party has changed and that it's the same way on the mainland (U.S.)

He has, amazingly, held his tongue when it comes to mainland politics around me (although I hear him mutter stuff every so often under his breath). The fact is, out of respect, I don't EVER get into arguments with him about politics because, what the hell would be the point anyway? Oh, I throw a number here and there, give him a bit of news he didn't know and generally just try to keep the "peace" around the front porch of their home in PR.

The point is, I learned to argue by parroting what my dad said because, well, crap, he's my dad and I love him very much and that's the way it is. I didn't really know what i was talking about but in case you didn't hear me the first time, I'll yell A LITTLE LOUDER! So, fine you get older, you talk more and with different people, you find different ways of saying different things... you work out what you really think and guess what? You still aren't sure, even at the ripe old age of 30 or 40 or 50.... Opinions are things that can vascillate a little. Eventually you find stuff you believe in that are real rocks for you, y'know? You find that there are just some things you know you'll always believe and those things are called principles. You live by them and live your life according to those principles and it makes you feel solid. And when there aren't people around to support you, buddy, well... you'll always have your principles to do just that.

But it takes time and the hardest thing about becoming a man like you are is knowing that every once in a while something's going to come out of your mouth that you aren't so sure you want to say or know why you're saying it. But you think for a moment and decide, "Hell, that's a principle! I really believe that. So, sorry you don't agree with me but that's the way it is." And you move on to the next principle , whatever and whenever that might be.

Never be afraid to express yourself around here. If you have trouble finding the words, you hold off a while, read a couple of articles, talk to your folks, a favorite friend... you know, just work it out. And then try it out on us (if you want) or whomever you feel comfortable with.

Later,

ML