PhatmonB6

Here is the latest I have found from the victims family





Last Updated: Sunday, 24 July, 2005, 12:26 GMT 13:26 UK



Family mourn for Brazilian victim

Mr Menezes' cousin said the British police were "incompetent"
Relatives and friends of Jean Charles de Menezes, the Brazilian man shot by police in London, have expressed their grief, shock and anger at the killing.
His London-based cousin, Alex Pereira, paid tribute to him but sharply criticised authorities for the error.

His grandmother said there was no reason for considering him a terrorist.

The 27-year-old was fatally shot after boarding a train at Stockwell underground station on Friday, a day after failed attacks on the network.

Climate of terror

The BBC's Steve Kingstone in Sao Paulo says there has been a lot of sympathy for London in Brazil over the bombings, together with an understanding of the need for tough police action.

He was the grandson that I always carried inside my heart, and I am terribly sad about what happened

Zilda Ambrosia de Figueiredo

But Brazilians are also strongly opposed to the Iraq war and there is still a lot of anger about the US invasion, he says.

They will be also be asking why someone lying on the floor and apparently offering no resistance was shot, according to eyewitnesses, five times in the head.

Our correspondent says the Brazilian government, while obviously sensitive to the broader climate of terror, is under pressure from its people to deliver answers.

It said in a statement it was shocked and perplexed, and expected a full explanation from the UK authorities.

'Full of life'

Details have been emerging about Mr Menezes - an apparently law-abiding citizen who was well-liked and as concerned as other Londoners about the bomb attacks.


Mr Pereira said his cousin was the son of a bricklayer and grew up in the city of Gonzaga in Minas Gerais state, a source of many migrants to Europe and the US.

He moved to Sao Paulo to live with his uncle at the age of 14, attended high school and became a qualified electrician.


Menezes was said to be on his way to fit a fire alarm

He had lived and worked in London legally for at least three years and spoke excellent English.

The cousin described him as a "person full of life", adding that he was "a victim of government's mistakes."

"They had to kill someone to show the whole population they are working and make the country safe," he told the BBC.

"He does not have a past that would make him run from police," he added in an interview for Brazilian TV.

But the BBC's Tom Gibb in Brazil said Mr Menezes' experience of Sao Paulo's slum areas meant that he might - on the contrary - have run in reaction to having a gun pulled on him.

His grandmother, Zilda Ambrosia de Figueiredo, offered perhaps the most touching tribute.

She told Globo TV: "He was very easy going and very communicative with everyone."

"He was the grandson that I always carried inside my heart. And I am terribly sad about what happened."

Motorbike

Gésio César D'avila, a friend and colleague, said Mr Menezes had considered alternative transport after the failed attacks on 21 July.

"We were together on Thursday, and when we saw what happened, Jean said he wanted to buy a motorbike to avoid the tube," he said.

On Friday Mr Menezes had come out of his flat in Tulse Hill, south London, which he shared with cousins Vivian and Patricia.

He was thought to be on his way to fit a fire alarm.

The house had been under police surveillance because of a suspected link to Thursday's attempted bombings.

Police followed him as he caught a bus to Stockwell tube station.

They said Mr Menezes' apparently bulky clothing added to their suspicions. Some Brazilians find even summer weather in the UK cold and often dress warmly.

But cousin Patricia Armani said she did not remember him wearing a padded jacket.

"He didn't use to feel cold. In the winter he even walked on the street with T-shirt," she told the BBC Brasil.com

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Clarino

Manny, as you can see from the above post the facts about his clothing are unclear, and the family seem to be doing everything in their power to undermine the police.

To answer some of your questions; Until today it has been a hot summer (up to 30 Celsius in the shade at times). The tubes are definitely not air conditioned, in fact I take my jacket off when I am going down the escalators even in winter.

Also, the police who challenged him were not uniformed "Bobbies", they were plain clothed Special Branch (SO13) officers. They identified themselves as "Armed Police", most police officers do not carry firearms over here, and told the man to stop. At that point, running away seems like an admission of guilt to me. I have yet to hear a reason from the family why he did not comply with the orders from the police.

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Manny Laureano

Well, yeah... I want to hear more about why the house was under surveillance. I can't imagine the police want to waste their time with anything that doesn't seem like it will lead them to more information.

When he was going to see about fitting a fire alarm. I wonder if he had any wiring with him. Is that what made the police suspicious? An electrician with possible friendships of unsavory types? I'm just playing amateur Dick Tracy while the real pros do their work.

Only time will tell... and I hope it tells the truth, no matter where the chips fall.

Edit: just read that they've arrested two guys, of them just hours ago, from the same neighborhood as the slain Brazilian. Sounds like a hot area from an investigative standpoint.

ML

Mr. Semman

The situation of the police shooting and killing what the press consider an innocent person, shows: 1) the power of the press to sway public opinion. In times like this, the public need to protective services more than ever, and not be displayed as incompetent and trigger happy; and 2) that people judge the actions of the police - after the fact. Even, as a retired police officer, I would not make any judgement on the police. Why? I wasn't there. I did not witness the bombings, find the bombs in the next attempt, nor witness what actions occurred prior to the shooting. But, from what I have read, heard and know from my experience is this: 1) there was a bombing in which 57 people died and a large number wounded; 2) there was another attempted bombing shortly thereafter; during a period of hot weather, the police observe someone who could easily be mistaken as middleastern wearing a heavy jacket; when they approach him, he flees; 3) after they catch him in the still crowded area, the suspect is shot, apprarently 5 times in the head.

What do I think? I believed that the police thought that they had another bomber. Even after they had subdued him, they thought that he could trigger the bomb, which would kill the police and any innocent bystanders.


You have one nanosecond to make a decision and act. What would you do?

I heard this statement a million times during the course of my career. "What takes a police officer a nanosecond to decide and do, takes the courts years to decide if it were the correct or incorrect action to take."


Gary

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Mikey

So that proves that one good cop can think faster and make a descision faster than our whole judicial system............

I talked with my brother about this. He is also a cop in Wisconsin. He said the same thing. If a cop has to stop and think, he and/or the people he is trying to protect can end up dead. Instinct and 1st impulses are what keeps cops alive.

Another great example of what it's like from a law enforcement personnel's perspective is to read the Autobiography titled "No Second Place Winner." It was written by Bill Jordan, a longtime US Border Patrol and customs agent. The title means exactly what it says. In law enforcement, "second place" means a body bag.

Manny Laureano

Thanks, Mr. S, for weighing in. I'd hoped you would. I know there's another retired officer on the boards but I've forgotten his screen name. I doubt you both heard "Thank you!" enough during your tenure as an officer. So, thank you for your service!

ML

Tootsall

To build on what Gary said.... what questions would the press be asking if the individual HAD been a bomber and successfully blown up the station or car, killing a dozen or so innocents (including Police)? Wouldn't they have been screaming for the "blood of a cop" for making the wrong decision based on the preponderance of evidence that was in front of them?

I'm also completely on the side of the Police on this issue. It's easy to "second guess" after the fact, not so easy to make a perfect judgement call 100% of the time. That's why we aren't all millionaires from the stock market.

Manny Laureano

Just checked the news again and one thing I hadn't noticed is that the guy, apparently, had an expired visa and that may explain, if true, why he ran away from the police.

While that's not an offense in and of itself worth shooting over, if it's true it throws something into the mix that puts the guy in common with the 9/11 terrorists. It all adds up and has to raise an officer's antennae.

More to come...

ML

Mr. Semman

Manny, Toots et al,

The new media sells news. It doesn't matter what slant they put on it, it's news.

As for officers making the call. The point is that they, like soldiers, often do not have the time to think. They must react. However, through training and practice, and experience, police officers, like soldiers, can and do react correctly. In some cases, like this one, they act correctly, but it may end up being a mistake. While no one is perfect, the public expects perfection.

If it is true that the victim was a true innocent, the case will be investigated, the "root cause" identified, and a corrective action will be taken to try to prevent this from happening in the future. In the end, the news media will attempt to try the case in its media, and defame the officers, and life will continue.

Gary

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Solar Bell

Great posts Mr. Semman,

As a Detroiter, you don't have to tell me about how the media can destroy a GOOD cop's career and life.

As a "ringer" in the Detroit Police jazz band years ago, I had no idea until i put on the uniform just how bad cops can have it with the media dogging them all the time.

A VERY HONORABLE and underpaid and unappreciated profession.

Thanks,
-cw-

"Who ya gonna call?"

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