Manny Laureano

Nice first post. Were you going around seeking this sort of argument and you landed here?

Okay, and I'm a Christian who treats people with more respect and sensitivity than most Atheists I know. That's a specious argument.

If you think that the morality with which you approach came out of a vaccuum it is you who is mistaken, I'm afraid. The mores that are part of the Western world come from the Torah and New Testament. You may have decided somewhere along the way (or perhaps it was decided for you) that you are a good person because logic dictates that being good is better for the survival of the species. Dandy. The Monotheistic world looks at that in a different way: that treating each other serves a deity that created us and therefore deserves a bit of respect. We show respect by following the rules first laid down in the Torah. Those rules were added to by the New Testament.

I'll lay that down and put my part to rest as these sorts of arguments are self-perpetuating. It would be fascinating to discuss this sort of thing in person but I suppose I've lost the patience and desire to do the "you post, I post" thing anymore.

Have at. I'm sure you'll have more takers.

ML

Tootsall

Unless you forgot to put the bag in. (what a mess that creates!)

Edit: Anyway I don't believe it absolutely necessary to adhere to one specific religion or another; that's a matter for the particular culture involved. But there must be expectations, rewards and (when absolutely necessary), punishments and that is INDEPENDANT of religion.

And I say that sitting here within eyesight of the Taber school where that shooting took place (and killed a Church Minister's son).

Alex Yates

My take - it is a materialistic society issue with a huge PARENTING issue. Religion or not....God or not.....Christianity or not. Children are not being parented or guided. They are being raised by television, violent games and music and each other. Christianity is not the answer. It no longer makes up the fabric of our country. We are a country of "religious freedoms", not solely Christians anymore. Spirituality does indeed need to be instilled in all children, BY THEIR PARENTS. Parents should choose the doctrine by which they wish their children to live their lives, not schools.

BTW - I was raised strict Catholic...at HOME. School was school. We showed our patriotism (remember Wednesdays in NY Public schools Manny? Wilmer?) ASSEMBLY it was called. We all showed our allegiance to our COUNTRY. Spirituality was taught at home. Morals were taught at home and by EXAMPLE. With parents not being around nearly enough anymore, there is no EXAMPLE....well, except violence in television, music, games...etc.

dkelley

I was afraid making this my first post would mark me as a political argument seeker. I'm really not. As it turns out, I've been visiting this site for a few month purely for trumpet knowledge. As a comeback player. I've found the trumpet discussions very educational, but I've never felt I had anything to add. Schilkeb6's post lit a fire under me and I felt like responding.

My point was not to belittle Christians in general (my choice of words was bad). I was just saying that I'm a really nice person who happens to be an athiest. Therefore, there are many paths (religious and non-religious) that get people to respect each other.

You are right. There can be no doubt that Christian morallity was played a role in my development. I just don't think that forcing it onto people in schools, etc. is the right way to teach people sensitivity, love, and caring.

I don't have all the answers.

David

[Edited typos. I'm sure there are still some so I'll just leave it alone]

dizforprez

Manny it is very easy to argue with what is listed, the problem is were to start.Who ever wrote that clearly has their own agenda that has nothing to do with moral principles. That post is nothing more than propaganda, and it is full of the pass the buck problem we have in our society. If we are at a point where people read that post and take it at face value with out seeing through it then we have a real problem far worse than any perceived moral decline.


[edit for spelling]

Yoder

Check your state laws. Most people think it is against the law to smack a kid. In most states it is not, but it is illeagal to hit them and leave marks. It is not against the law to hit a student in Colorado, just not acceptable policy. If my daughters need to be smacked in public, then I will do it and nobody has turned me in yet.

__________________
http://www.co-bw.com

DaveH

OK, I'll play...

So, what do all who are able to so concisely articulate the problem - and I agree that there is a GIANT problem, among several other GIANT problems in this society other than kids and schools, etc - propose or suggest that is to be DONE about it?

Lots of talk - few answers...that is typical politics.

What are the specific things that will be/can be done to right all these wrongs? I hear a lot about the problem(s)...now, what are the solutions? What do you propose to do about something that is largely a function of human depravity? More laws? More politicians? More lawyers and lawsuits? Constitutional amendments? Better education? Required church attendance? A government mandated religion? Required membership the the "correct" political party? Some sort of persecution ala the Spanish Inquisition? Perhaps a transition to political dictatorship?

Perhaps I am being somewhat tongue in cheek at times, but I guess I haven't heard the answers yet...

B15M

Way Way less.

dizforprez

No, we had parents then that did their jobs and raised their kids instead of dumping that job on to the school and then complaining about the way it was done.

You act like schools are the catalyst here for this change, it is the citizens( read parents) who drive the whole system.

Tootsall

What diz said. If we were "acting up", you can bet there was going to be a "consequence". Partially due to economic circumstances at the time the majority of us likely had mothers who did not have to go out into the workforce and were able to make dang sure we sat at the kitchen table and did our homework. "You're gonna get it when you father gets home" was a fairly common refrain.

If we acted up in the schoolyard then you can bet there was someone around who'd be happy to take us "out behind the gym" and show us that they considered our behaviour socially unacceptable. Same thing if the teacher had to cart our sorry carcass off to the principal's office (where, if things were REALLY bad, we'd have to wait for our parents to come and take part in the "discussion"...talk about "time for reflection!").

We didn't have shopping malls to "hang out in" with our friends... we didn't have a very slick recording industry pushing anything more serious on us than Rock 'n' Roll. (Good grief, our present heros, Dizzy and 'Trane and Thelonius were considered about as "anti-social" as it got!)

The town cop wasn't afraid to haul us off to visit our parents "right then and there". If things were really bad the judge could order a curfew and you can darn well bet that there wouldn't be any screeching and hollering to the appeals court by a mega$$ lawyer!!! And that includes the night we got caught with a box of beer in the back seat of the car or out in the town park!

In short, we had fun, we learned, BUT WE DID IT WITHIN WHAT WAS CONSIDERED SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE and if we got caught else-wise then we accepted, and paid, the price.

That's what's wrong today... nobody seems to feel it's necessary to take responsibility for one's own actions any longer and so their kids aren't being taught that neither.