gzent

I interpret "thinking for yourself" as first recognizing propaganda, pointing it out and determining where it is a falsehood.

That is a very necessary skill to poseess, especially if you happen to be a high school student in our country. The difficulty arises for those disadvantaged students for whom "thinking for yourself" is a foreign concept.

The students that have disinterested parents do not learn to "think for yourself" and are at the mercy of public schools and the personal agendas of their teachers. Many educators are primarily interested in teaching students WHAT to think, not HOW to think. When history is taught as a blame game and a guilt trip that is not right.

Too many teachers have all the issues neatly editorialized in neat prepackaged articles for their students to digest.

"Here kids, read this 5 page article by this single-minded reporter and answer the questions on the worksheet."

That is not teaching, that's practicing memorization of someone else's biased views.

Too many times my kids have repeated biased opinions from their teachers that belong on editorial pages and its obvious that they are not being taught to glean facts and form their own opinions. And when my kids bring in newpaper articles or press releases that provide a viewpoint that opposes that of their teacher they are not commended for doing further studies, but
are dismissed as ignorant or labelled as having a bad attitude.

My experience is not unique, I have many friends who have shared the same experience - if you dare to challenge a teacher's OPINION then you risk getting a lousy grade or criticized in front of your classmates.

Yes, propaganda is a dangerous thing, especially in high school classrooms.

Greg

__________________
Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revalation
And the mind's true liberation

DaveH

How come I never heard much about this kind of thing when I was in school??

I started first grade in 1957 and graduated from high school in 1969. Nobody talked about prayer, religion, or any related topics in school. Period. I just went to school, took my classes, did my homework, played in band, chased some girls later on when I got into high school. The typical stuff that people anywhere from 6 to 18 years old tend to do.

I took all the standard academic classes and some extracurricular activities - never once do I remember any of this controversy in school, no one arguing about it at all; it never even came up. If anyone wanted spiritual education, I guess they went to church on Sunday or the Catholic school.

And, my father was a high school band director/music teacher, so I grew up around "education" people beyond my own classroom experiences. I never heard it come up in the teacher's lounge, or at home.

Is this some kind of big deal from the late 20th Century? Sorry, I don't get it...and I'm not interested in any big debates either. just information.

When and where I was in school, no one seemed to care or even think about it...

rjzeller

The original post went well beyond simply God in school issues. I must wonder if those who found offense with Chuck's post read the entire thing, as this whole thread has dribbled down to a squabble over religion in school.

Yes, it may be presented as a tool of rhetoric aimed at establishing a conservative christian agenda, but regardless of how one wishes to interpret the meaning, the message is still clear (and no less valid): Our children have grown increasingly uncivil, undisciplined, and immoral because we've removed all the tools that enable us to teach them morality and civility.

Now, of course I still believe it to be the responsibility of the parent, not the educator, to be the primary provider of moral instruction and leadership to the child; but I this does not eliminate the need for discipline and good moral coaching outside the home. Being a good parent does not negate the effects of bad educational/institutional surroundings. And I would wager that modern society has increased the demands on parents who wish to raise Christian (or muslim, or jewish, or even well-minded agnostics or athiests) children.

It seems everyone gets their undies in a bunch over this stuff becuase they always see theese arguments (as they do every such argument) as entirely black or white. Either side A gets 100% thier way, or side B gets 100% their way, no middle ground. And even THAT is not so bad, the real problem is one of PERCEPTION. One side is thoroughly convinced the other wants to christianize every person and school, while the other is thoroughly convinced that one side wants to criminalize or morally bankrupt our kids.

So here we are, demanding that anything remotely christian be expelled from the domain of public eduction; or on the other hand, insisting that God be everywhere.

The problem is, most christians aren't insisting that every child be forced to learn about Jesus Christ and the Holy Bible. What they're asking for is the right of the child (or even the faculty) to practice their religion in school. Why should a child risk expulsion because he dared to say a prayer before his lunch in the school cafeteria (yes, it's happened). The problem is not that we need to "force down the throats of every child" christianity or any other form of theology. The problem is that in an effort to NOT force any particular religion on the children, we've gone the other direction and sterilized the institution of public education of religion with such zeal that we've literally thrown all morality to the wind.

We teach our kids at home to "choose the right", don't have sex, don't drink, Love thy neighbor, God loves YOU, and then we send them to school where the mere mention of God or Christ is a magnificent taboo.

...but the problem goes so far beyond "poisoning" some youth with the consideration of a God. Much of Chuck's original post clearly pointed at issues not at all related to religion in school, but merely common-sense moral issues that we have abdicated over the years in some blind attempt at exhibiting fairness and tollerance of all social experiements and differences.

Is it any wonder that kids are conflicted these days, when they are attacked and shunned by society for embracing the values they're taught so dilligently at home?

Yes, we can all takes Chuck's post in whatever light it hits us, but I would suggest most of us consider it a strong warning -- whether or not you agree with having God in school, the need to be consistent and firm with what we teach our children at home is greater than ever. If we're worried about what our kids are being taught at school, whether christian or jew or athiest or whatnot, then we had better be very concerned about what that child is learning at home, and take every step necessary to prepare them accordingly.

It doesn't forgive society and education for what I think are some serious flaws, but it can still help you to turn out the adult you want your child to become.

__________________
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who do not.

Alex Yates

RZ, you seem to have encapsulated all of our concerns quite nicely in your very well-written post. If you read all of the posts, you will see where it split off into a school issue, only because some of us have seen it many times before being used in a negative way concerning religion and school. This also has nothing to do with Chuck. He posted a fwd, as a lot of us do sometimes, just to share and provoke thought.

BTW - A note on school stuff.
When it comes to God in schools, I am not against the word "God" in the pledge of allegiance, a "moment of silence" before school begins and before eating a meal. In most religious cultures there are ceremonious actions associated with thanking their chosen deity for another day and for the bounty of food. I think recognition of spirituality CAN be incorporated in school if it is done sensitively and carefully. Even an atheist could not object to morning reflection. When it comes to being thankful for food one is about to eat, one should be allowed to "be thankful" if they so choose without threats of expulsion or any kind of discipline. My only point is that we are a country of religious freedoms and those are the lines the schools should parallel. In parts of the country, admitting that your religion belongs along side others is what causes problems. Those who feel very strongly about their beliefs do not want their children exposed to other beliefs. That is where it gets sticky.......

Like you said though, the original post goes well beyond that and all of your points and concerns are valid. I am sure most folks in the country feel this way as we witness all of the violence, incivility and disrespect pouring out in the behavior of our children and a great deal of "adults". The answer isn't so easy to figure out, is it? (rhetorical)

DaveH

OK, a little apart from the original, but following the recent...and then I'm done...

What I think many people want to be free from is the proselytizing that accompanies much religious practice. I am perfectly content with individual religious practices, whatever they are. If someone wants to pray before a meal, or pray in the morning at the start of the day, fine. If someone wants to read the Bible, fine. If someone want to have a Bible study after school for like minded people, and even on the school grounds, fine. I also understand the connection between much of Western civilization's general moral and ethical standards and codes, and Judeo-Christian beliefs.

I would, however, maintain that someone who wants a religious education, complete with the development of evangelistic thought and behavior should attend a private, religious school. Therein such thinking and behaviors are not only taught, but freely encouraged and expected. If you attend a religious school, you should expect to be taught the doctrines of the religion involved, and expect to receive efforts to embrace those beliefs as your own. You can expect active conversion efforts to be a part of the school's mission. There is a close parallel between the missions of a religious school and the church to which it owes its origins.

I do not think the public schools should become evangelistic mission fields for ardent Christians, or any other group for that matter, as I do not want to pick on anyone in particular - who see conversion of others as an important part of their religious beliefs and practices as well.

I find no offense in the original post, and have no "squabble" with any of it or anything else. But, I am aware of the concept of Christianity which advocates conversion of the world, and I am not interested in paying for that kind of thing in a school to which I pay taxes. IMO, there is a time and place for everything, and public school is about education, not conversion. This is where I would have an objection to religious practice occuring in public school. No objection in regard to private/personal behaviors.

It has been a thought provoking thread, to be sure...

rjzeller

Alex, that has to be one of the most fair-minded posts I've seen. To be sure, I was trying to encapsulate a portion of the thread and drive down the middle as best a christian conservative, such as myself, could.

Like I said, I think parents are the primary line of defense for kids...but modern society has made it increasingly more difficult to that end.

Somehow I knew you'd come up with a well-minded response. If only others could....


Z

__________________
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who do not.

gzent

Dave,

I agree that public schools should not be advocating or pushing religious views onto students.

Likewise, I do not want Atheism, Cultural Relativism and agressive Liberalism being forced on my kids, but unfortunately it is.

Greg

__________________
Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revalation
And the mind's true liberation

DaveH

Complete agreement here...

No "isms" of any kind for me either, please. Let's concentrate on developing the students' abilities to think and learn. Let's give out knowledge free from "ax-grinding." That was my experience in school back in the good old days. Nobody "pushing" any agendas. Actually, that is where I would like to go, if I had the opportunity. I'm not at all "cool" with a lot of what apparently transpires in schools nowadays. No one ever tried to convert me, recruit me, brainwash me, or turn me into something or someone else. Eventually the learners will make their own choices and come to their own conclusions.

Let"s teach Math in Math class, History in History, etc. There is enough actual content to learn that it isn't necessary to fill in time by promoting anyone's agenda about anything.

My point is simply let's educate, not proselytize from ANY agenda, and let the learners reach their own conclusions when they are ready.

Tootsall

That one rates two Schools should give backgrounds and history, encourage curiosity and independant thinking, and reinforce both individual and collective project/case-work. Make music available for ALL. Provide as much support for music (both resources and encouragement) as they do for sports.

"Sports teach teamwork"....... yeah... every try to sit in a band where there's no teamwork?

dkelley

I agree also that we should do our best to keep school a place for neutral learning and growth. However, the problem that I find difficult to resolve is how to deal with times when the boundary between neutral education and proselytizing is not clear. For example, if we want to teach children about the current science of biology, we need to talk about evolution. This is contrary to many people's religion belief of creationism. I'm sure some people equate evolution with Atheism; I just call it science. Also, discussions about the human reproductive system walk on thin ice too. Also, learning about cultures/religions that are not strongly represented in the US seems neutral to me. However, I'm sure some people are offended when these studies explain views that are contrary to there own.

I guess there's no way to make everyone happy.

__________________
-David Kelley