Clarino

Greg, my opinion is not, as you suggest, taken from a snapshot from the mainstream news. I have been following the situation in the middle east for many years, have spoken to various Muslims and Jews on the subject and came to a considered opinion.

Also I should point out that the reason the UN has left this situation to fester is that the US has consistently vetoed any resolution which includes authorisation for military action to make the area safe for civillians, and force Israel to respect the borders agreed in the Sixties.

Ash, You ask three questions.

"Where else can a Jew go to flee persecution?"
America, Britain, France, Spain..........The list is endless.

"Was there this much conflict when Britain controlled Isreal?"
I don't know. I was not alive then, but I have not heard of such animosity during that period. In fact before modern day Israel existed Palestine (as the whole area was knowen then) was inhabited by Christians, Jews and Muslims in peace. Or so I am told.

"Why does Isreal belong to the Palestinians?"

It does not. Israel belongs to the Israelis. Palestine Belongs to the Palestinians. They are two seperate nations whose borders are defined by the United Nations. Israel is currently occupying Palestinian land in Gaza and the West Bank.

Japle, you clearly have a prejudiced opinion agains Muslims. If you really believe that in Mosques across the world Imams are preaching "Kill the Jews, kill the Jews" I beg you, speak to a muslim. Ask his opinion of Jews. Most muslims are very kind people whose main concern is raising and providing for their family.

Ash

During the holocaust, many jews were turned away at ellis island. All we want is a garauntee. It seems to me like isreal is very small and there are other very large arab nations. If israel gets any smaller, it is bound to disapear.

__________________
1974 Raw Brass 37
1933 King Cornet

Japle

"Japle, you clearly have a prejudiced opinion agains Muslims. If you really believe that in Mosques across the world Imams are preaching "Kill the Jews, kill the Jews" I beg you, speak to a muslim."

I was over there for Gulf War 1. My unit was in charge of thousands of POWs and I had the opportunity to speak to many Muslims. That's my main source of information on this subject. The official "Party Line" as given in the majority of Mosques in the Mid-East is, "Kill the Jews".

In addition, all you have to do is watch the news videos of Muslims dancing in the streets with joy every time a suicide bomber blows up a bus in Israel.

__________________
John
Kanstul Chicago 1070
GR 62M
The Mute Rack!!
http://home.cfl.rr.com/themuterack/
Cape Canaveral

jamesfrmphilly

it's that darn 1%, huh 8)

__________________
1946 Martin Committee, Bach 5V

Clarino

Ash, Israel's existence and independance guaranteed by the United Nations. Were Israel to be invaded and conquered by any of it's Arab neighbours the UN would sanction military action to liberate Israel. The US would certainly be at the forefront of any such campaign. Israel is also not going to get any smaller. Their boundaries are defined by the UN. All the international community asks is that Israel respect those borders and stop occupying land beyond them.

Japle, your experience with Iraqi POWs gave you rather unbalanced reflection of Muslim opinion wouldn't you agree? POWs taken in the first gulf war were not likely to be religiously tollerant people are they? Also you should not let the news influence you so strongly. All news channels are sensationalist. They are after ratings and will actively search out people who celebrate the deaths of their percieved enemies in order to film these celebrations.

In fact the people interviewed on the BBC after the World Trade Centre attacks saying "I wish to Allah more of them had died" were condemned by the Muslim council of Great Britain as "not Muslims".

Muslims are for the most part wonderful people. As James says, it's that 1% giving them a bad name.

Mikey

Just like the 1% of the right wing fanatic Christians giving the rest of us a bad name, like David Koresh, etc al......................

Don't blame all Muslims for the nuttiness of 1%.

Mike

Japle

Clarino,

No, I don't agree that my experience with Iraqi POWs gives me an unbalanced reflection of Muslim opinion. Iraqi POWs were pretty representative of the population as a whole. Saadam conscripted his soldiers from the general population. The officers were generally fairly well educated and the enlisted men were taken from the lower-through-middle classes. They were overwhelmingly Muslim. They may have hated Saadam, but they hated us, too.
We were very careful with those guys.

I'm not nearly as worried about the Muslims in the UK or Detroit as I am the ones in the Mid-East. The Muslim family in Safeway doesn't bother me. It's the ones all through South Asia that will be causing the trouble for the next several decades, at least.

__________________
John
Kanstul Chicago 1070
GR 62M
The Mute Rack!!
http://home.cfl.rr.com/themuterack/
Cape Canaveral

Ash

Clarino,
I thought that Israel offered some of it's land to the arabs, and they rejected it because they wanted it all. Tel-Aviv bombings don't exactly seem to be in the palestinian areas.

__________________
1974 Raw Brass 37
1933 King Cornet

Clarino

Ash, the Israeli government offered to give Palestine back some of the land they had annexed, the Palestinians refused to accept because they wanted all of the land they were entitled to. Not all of Israel. Israel's land has never been offered to Palestine. They only offered a small amount of the land they had taken in the first place. The offer also included travel restrictions and checks that the Israeli government knew the Palestinians could never accept. Palestine would be divided into two areas with one road connecting them, and Israeli soldiers monitoring and restricting the movement of palestinian citizens. That's a bit like Canada conquering the US then offering to return California, Oregon and Washington-New York, New Jersey, and Delaware, connected by one road patrolled by soldiers who want you dead. Think you could accept that? Bombs in Tel Aviv are, as you point out, not in the Palestinian area. The bombers want to cause as much death to Israelis as possible and do so in a high profile way. It is not only an act of terrorism, it is an act of protest.

Japle, you and I will have to agree to differ on this point, but I do not believe that the majority of Muslims in the midle east share the opinions of those you encountered.

Dr G

Ash ---

I am somewhat confused as to just what "all of the land they were entitled to" contemplates. It might also be helpful for us understand the reasoning behind this entitlement.

International law provides some [fairly confused] doctrines regarding property and its acquisition on a national scale. If I understand the history here, the English [1948] established the nation of Israel, and determined its boundaries at that time [I guess they held the biggest stick on the block]. I suggest the challenge to land ownership is tied up in that matter. I suspect there is an international court in which such ownership might be determined, damages paid, compensation offered, etc. Might it not be reasonable to utilize the international legal system rather than war to resolve this issue?

As to the travel restrictions and checks, are we not doing substantially the same thing [on a different scale] in the United States since 9/11 in the form of airline security and related activities? If you think this results in equal treatment, why not dress yourself in middle eastern garb and take a plane ride, it might be more interesting than you suppose.

I am also somewhat confused by the propensity to make one's point by killing one's self. While it makes good news, wreaks destruction in a limited area, and otherwise is a good conversation starter, you only get to do it once and you have to make the best of it. Seems the better view is to be less violent and establish your ideas in a forum larger than the range of your ability to carry explosives.

I have been long impressed with the Indian nation obtaining its independence from the British empire, generally in a nonviolent manner -- are they the only people in the world who understand that violence is often and generally rewarded by more violence?

While I think the aim of the Palestinian leadership is to "cause as much death to Israelis as possible and do so in a high profile way" [then again they have failed to make much progress in any other way] I do not see them participating in these events [except from as much distance as they can be from them or by ill timed presence]

Do you really believe that teenagers [and perhaps younger children] are self motivated to act this way? Do these children really understand that they are committing not only an act of terrorism but also that they are protesting [something]?