Dr G

PS to my most recent post on this forum,

It was my intention to adress not only Ash but also Clarino, Japle, Mikey, jamesfrmphilly, and gzent.

I forgot to review it before I submitted it.

In any case, I would appreciate all your views on the issues stated.

Thanks

jamesfrmphilly

i think the problem is a failure of ALL sides to be willing to respect the humanity of the other.
i think we have the same problem in the US and even in this forum.
as long as we have folks who are unwilling to genuinely feel the other side, who "know" that they are all right and that other is all wrong, there will be wars. 8)

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1946 Martin Committee, Bach 5V

Ash

Ok, I was wrong. My apologies. Dr G, is your entire post directed at me? I don't think I even mentioned most of the stuff you talked about. Is there a map of Israel divided up into isreali and palestinian areas? I think Israel should have at least as much land as Jordan, but that will never happen. I don't think Israel should get what it wants by war, I just think it shouldn't give up because of war.

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1974 Raw Brass 37
1933 King Cornet

Dr G

Ash, the post was not specifically directed to you, I did not identify all who I desired to get information from in my first post -- sorry about that.

If you begin with the establishment of Israel as a nation after WWII and continue to the present and include all the arguments on either side, I think you can come up with the conclusion that the whole of the area is not worth the deaths that have resulted on either, let alone both sides.

I realize that there are great differences of opinion as to "exactly" what is what and whose is whose, but can those differences be resolved without the violence? Current events suggest not.

How to resolve the issues is truly beyond my ability to either concieve or achieve. This does not seem to be a "black/white" issue, nor does it seem that either side is without some justification --- what is amazing to me is that there is no end to what I consider to be needless violence.

Whatever boundaries were established have apparently been the subject of the ongoing dispute.

I am just amazed that a lot of folks think that if they cannot have what they want, they might as well kill themselves. What a loss. Worse is that they want to randomly take other people's lives as well.

I think the real issue is to at least stop the insantiy, all it seems to do is generate more insanity.

gzent

Dr G,

An international court comprised of whom? And who would agree to follow its decisions? And, more importantly who would enforce its decisions? The United Nations? The UN is a gigantic bureaucratic mess, just take a look at www.un.org and even try to find a list of its members.

The mishandling of the post Gulf war embargos and inspections, the failure to stop the proliferation of Nuclear and Chemical weapons, the inability to prevent ethnic wars all over the globe and, yes, the failure to provide any sort of solution to the Israeli / Palestinian conflict, other than drafting more sanctions that will be ignored, all demonstrate the futility of the UN and global political organizations.

By attempting to solve problems without force and the proper placement of blame, the UN ends up solving nothing. It should be no surprise, the majority of the member nations are NOT free and open democracies and the "Ambassadors" are often PR men for ruthless despots (remember Tariq Azez?). Free societies with appreciation for law and cultures that respect the rights of individuals will not and should not be expected to be put on trial by an organization with such a suspect history of favoritism and double talk. The same issues plagued the League of Nations, as does any international organization with no principle based management allowing any and all to join.

As for peaceful conflict resolution and respect among nations how can Western and other democratic free socities possibly have meaningful negotiations with countries where suicide bombings, child exploitation and state sponsored hatred of other races / religions are accepted facets of their culture?

Greg

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Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revalation
And the mind's true liberation

Ash

http://www.un.org/Overview/unmember.html
If you go to the english page and click on "Members", it's not too hard to find :wink:

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1974 Raw Brass 37
1933 King Cornet

Clarino

I believe you will be able to find a map of the UN mandated areas for both Palestine and Israel on the UN website or any news website as the issue has been widely covered. You may also be able to find a map showing the areas of Palestine currently occupied by Israel.

Why should Israle have as much land as Jordan? This seems a fairly arbitrary way of dividing up the land. Israel should respect international law and withdraw from Palestine to within it's own borders.


Dr. G, I think the fact that Palestinian terrorists are using suicide tactics rather than remote bombing (as the IRA have used) reflects the stregnth of feeling. They would rather die than live under Israeli tyranny.

Ash

There are tons of muslim and christian countries. There is one jewish country. You're right, Jordans size is an arbitrary size. I just want it to be equal to a moderately sized muslim country. I'm sure the retarded suicide bomber the palestinians sent out would rather die than live under israeli rule. Sheesh.

__________________
1974 Raw Brass 37
1933 King Cornet

Dr G

Here is at least one international court that has some interest in the issues discussed here.

Whether anyone is interested or willing to submit themselves to the jurisdiction of this court is another issue.

http://212.153.43.18/icjwww/icj002.htm