Bach 180S37 -- a review - Page 2

trumplyr · 03-01-2004, 11:33 AM

Dave,

Missed this when it was first posted and I'm glad I saw it today.

I very much appreciate this review, if for no other reason, because your writing skills make this a clear, easy to understand piece. Others have already said these things, so I'm just seconding their thoughts. I believe that I understand every point you made, and you covered all the important things someone should look for in selecting an instrument. Now that I realize you're doing this. I'll be looking for the next installments.

Very nice job,
Marty

dcstep · 03-01-2004, 02:52 PM

Marty, I've recently posted in-depth reviews of the Xeno RGSM/RGM, Stomvi USA, Stomvi Mambo, Selmer Paris Concept TT, Selmer Paris Chorus 80J and, of course, the Bach 180/37. Search here and on www.trumpetherald.com (they're generally posted both places).

In the near future I hope to review a Bach 38MH (medium bore, heavy bell), a Chicago Brassworks and a few others that might slide my way. I've briefly played a bunch of others and I'm thinking of trying to do an in-depth on the Wayne Bergeron and a, dare I say it, ZeuS, among others. We'll see what happens.

Thanks for your feedback.

Dave

mheffernen5 · 04-05-2004, 05:54 PM

Dave, it is great to hear such a great review on Bach. So many people don't like them. So Bach strads are truly great? At least Bach is a good, well trusted name

dcstep · 04-05-2004, 06:17 PM

Well, I enjoy my Selmer Paris more than a Bach 37, but most of that is personal taste and part is fit and finish superiority. Still, that doesn't make the Bach not "great."

All of us have heard Bach 37s sound wonderful in the hands of many, many great trumpeters. I happen to think that the current generation of Bachs is just as capable of magic as the older Bachs. Still, there are lots of alternatives. The Bach's price reflects its good reputation, good resale and a certain cache' earned over the decades. There are bargains to be had for less (Jupiter, Kanstul, Yamaha -- although Yammy is closing in on Bach price-wise) and superior horns at considerably more cost (Chicago Brass, Laskey, etc.), but you can't go too far wrong with an off-the-shelf Bach.

Anyone that says this horn or that horn is the "only" way to go, just isn't thinking or hasn't really played a lot of horns.

Dave

Dave

dcstep · 04-05-2004, 06:30 PM

"so many people don't like them (Bachs)"

I think that's mostly piling on and bashing a good thing. Haman nature demands a certain degree of this. The accountant in me used to make me constantly seek a better "bargain", thus I had a series of excellent Yamaha. Finally, I ran into my Selmer and all frugalness went out the window in favor of a really "special" horn that I love. I was never a Bach basher, BUT I never owned one and I always told anyone that would listen to go try a Yamaha, Schilke or Kanstul.

There may have been a period not long ago when Bach's quality dipped substantially below the price point, but I never played any of those Bachs. The ones I've played had a great tone, decent intonation and were reasonably well assembled, given the price. All the Bach imitations that I've sounded very fine in their own right, BUT none sounded exactly like a Bach (I'm not saying the Bach sound is superior, but that I haven't heard an imitation that sounded the same). If you want that exact sound you'll need to play a Bach, or at least a Bach rebuild, like a Laskey or Malone.

That is an interesting question, "why hasn't anyone exactly reproduced the Bach 37 sound?" Seem to me that the materials and measurements are known. Maybe all the copiers want to "improve" the tone by using more copper or a different bell taper or etc., etc. I haven't tried a Zeus, but from the description of the materials it seems highly unlikely that it sounds like a Bach 37. (Adding that to my "To Do" list).

Dave

rebelatheart · 04-07-2004, 08:35 PM

A couple of months ago, I play tested 6 samples of the 180-37 at my local music store. While they all felt basically the same and all had basically the same (to my ear) beautiful tone, I did find one aspect that was very inconsistant, that was SLOTTING. Granted, my playing skill (or lack of) had something to do with it, but 2 horns stood out as slotting very well, and 2 stood out as slotting very poorly (or loosely). I could play the same challenging (for me) passage on one horn without making mistakes, and play the same passage on another and stumble all over myself. Would this be due to differences in valve allignment and therefore correctable with a PVA? I'm trying to solve the "good horn-bad horn" mystery.

Mikey · 04-07-2004, 09:14 PM

A valve alignment may indeed help the poor slotting, but a more likely culprit is the wrong gap. I imagine there is some inconsistancies in the way Bach solders the receiver to the leadpipe. I have resorted to bringing a digital caliper along when I am testing horns. Granted, the exact same gap may not work for everybody, but I have found with Bach trumpets that plus or minus a few thousandths from .125 or 1/8 of an inch seems to work for me. I don't measure the gap until I have played the horn for a bit, and if the horns is not slotting right, I measure the gap. Almost always, it is way under (and sometimes way over) that "magic" .125)

I have also found that a little larger gap helps in the upper register, but you have to find the right compromise to fit the whole register of the horn.

Again, this is what works for me.

Mike

rebelatheart · 04-09-2004, 01:06 PM

Thanks for that tip, Mikey. You imply that this "optimal gap" may vary from person to person. Should I assume that this "optimal gap would also vary from horn to horn? I measured the gap (roughly) on my current main horn (King Legend Lg bore) and it's 0.25 inches. I've heard of people wrapping paper around their mouthpiece to experiment with increasing the gap, do you know of any "tricks" I could use to experiment by decreasing the gap?

Mikey · 04-09-2004, 01:57 PM

Wow, if it is .250, that sounds like way too much gap. You have to be sure you are measuring as accurately as possible, which is why I bought my digital caliper. Unfortunately, I can think of only 3 ways to decrease the gap size. The first is to get a qualified repair person to unsolder the receiver, and move it further down the leadpipe. This is risky, since the leadpipe is tapered at that point, and you could end up with a leak. The second way is to have the repair person hone the inside walls of the receiver so the mouthpiece shank goes in further, thus decreasing the gap. Again, risky, as you don't want to hone too much. Perhaps the simplest and cheapest way is to have Bob Reeves machine your mouthpiece shank to fit his sleeves. Then, get sleeves in various sizes and play them all until you feel the horn "lock in". It's hard to tell which sleeve would be the "right one" without trying them all, as there are so many variables. When you decide on a certain sleeve, Reeves can solder that sleeve to the shank, so you have a solid mouthpiece again.
But if you go the sleeve route, take the time to test each sleeve. I used to have the tendency to switch back and forth like crazy, blaming a missed note on the "wrong gap"

Hope this helps.........

Mike

rebelatheart · 04-09-2004, 07:17 PM

Hi Mikey,

Yikes! All of those options sound kind of scary to me. I should probably leave well enough alone (when have I EVER done that?),
because it slots pretty good, but maybe I'll "mickey mouse" something just to experiment, like maybe plastic washers/shims in the reciever or something. Of course with my luck they'll get stuck. Maybe if I contact the factory, they could tell me what (if any) the factory spec gap should be. I wondered if perhaps different mouthpieces would yield a different gap due to different diameter taper (i.e. thinner shank protruding in more and narrowing the gap), but the factory UMI mouthpiece gave the same measurement as the bach mouthpieces.

The last time I took a horn into my local shop for a repair that required a re-solder (on a vintage Olds Special) they left a huge ring of solder in the horn that essentially changed the effetive bore of the horn from .460 to around .425! That made me a little gun shy, I guess.

03-01-2004, 11:33 AM	#11 (permalink)
trumplyr Pianissimo User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Rochester Hills, Mi. Posts: 72	Dave, Missed this when it was first posted and I'm glad I saw it today. I very much appreciate this review, if for no other reason, because your writing skills make this a clear, easy to understand piece. Others have already said these things, so I'm just seconding their thoughts. I believe that I understand every point you made, and you covered all the important things someone should look for in selecting an instrument. Now that I realize you're doing this. I'll be looking for the next installments. Very nice job, Marty __________________ Marty "Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is not truth. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music. Music is the best." Frank Zappa

03-01-2004, 02:52 PM	#12 (permalink)
dcstep Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Denver Posts: 680	Marty, I've recently posted in-depth reviews of the Xeno RGSM/RGM, Stomvi USA, Stomvi Mambo, Selmer Paris Concept TT, Selmer Paris Chorus 80J and, of course, the Bach 180/37. Search here and on www.trumpetherald.com (they're generally posted both places). In the near future I hope to review a Bach 38MH (medium bore, heavy bell), a Chicago Brassworks and a few others that might slide my way. I've briefly played a bunch of others and I'm thinking of trying to do an in-depth on the Wayne Bergeron and a, dare I say it, ZeuS, among others. We'll see what happens. Thanks for your feedback. Dave __________________ Schilke '60 B1 Selmer Paris -- '57 #20 K-Modified/ '03 Concept TT w/ GR66.8B2.8 '94 Lawler TL cornet w/ Sparx 2B Conn Vintage One flugel - GR66FD www.pitpops.com www.ucm-inc.com Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

04-05-2004, 06:17 PM	#14 (permalink)
dcstep Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Denver Posts: 680	Well, I enjoy my Selmer Paris more than a Bach 37, but most of that is personal taste and part is fit and finish superiority. Still, that doesn't make the Bach not "great." All of us have heard Bach 37s sound wonderful in the hands of many, many great trumpeters. I happen to think that the current generation of Bachs is just as capable of magic as the older Bachs. Still, there are lots of alternatives. The Bach's price reflects its good reputation, good resale and a certain cache' earned over the decades. There are bargains to be had for less (Jupiter, Kanstul, Yamaha -- although Yammy is closing in on Bach price-wise) and superior horns at considerably more cost (Chicago Brass, Laskey, etc.), but you can't go too far wrong with an off-the-shelf Bach. Anyone that says this horn or that horn is the "only" way to go, just isn't thinking or hasn't really played a lot of horns. Dave Dave __________________ Schilke '60 B1 Selmer Paris -- '57 #20 K-Modified/ '03 Concept TT w/ GR66.8B2.8 '94 Lawler TL cornet w/ Sparx 2B Conn Vintage One flugel - GR66FD www.pitpops.com www.ucm-inc.com Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

04-05-2004, 06:30 PM	#15 (permalink)
dcstep Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Denver Posts: 680	"so many people don't like them (Bachs)" I think that's mostly piling on and bashing a good thing. Haman nature demands a certain degree of this. The accountant in me used to make me constantly seek a better "bargain", thus I had a series of excellent Yamaha. Finally, I ran into my Selmer and all frugalness went out the window in favor of a really "special" horn that I love. I was never a Bach basher, BUT I never owned one and I always told anyone that would listen to go try a Yamaha, Schilke or Kanstul. There may have been a period not long ago when Bach's quality dipped substantially below the price point, but I never played any of those Bachs. The ones I've played had a great tone, decent intonation and were reasonably well assembled, given the price. All the Bach imitations that I've sounded very fine in their own right, BUT none sounded exactly like a Bach (I'm not saying the Bach sound is superior, but that I haven't heard an imitation that sounded the same). If you want that exact sound you'll need to play a Bach, or at least a Bach rebuild, like a Laskey or Malone. That is an interesting question, "why hasn't anyone exactly reproduced the Bach 37 sound?" Seem to me that the materials and measurements are known. Maybe all the copiers want to "improve" the tone by using more copper or a different bell taper or etc., etc. I haven't tried a Zeus, but from the description of the materials it seems highly unlikely that it sounds like a Bach 37. (Adding that to my "To Do" list). Dave __________________ Schilke '60 B1 Selmer Paris -- '57 #20 K-Modified/ '03 Concept TT w/ GR66.8B2.8 '94 Lawler TL cornet w/ Sparx 2B Conn Vintage One flugel - GR66FD www.pitpops.com www.ucm-inc.com Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

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04-05-2004, 05:54 PM	#13 (permalink)
mheffernen5 Pianissimo User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa (Midwest) Posts: 170	Dave, it is great to hear such a great review on Bach. So many people don't like them. So Bach strads are truly great? At least Bach is a good, well trusted name

04-07-2004, 08:35 PM	#16 (permalink)
rebelatheart New Friend Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 5	A couple of months ago, I play tested 6 samples of the 180-37 at my local music store. While they all felt basically the same and all had basically the same (to my ear) beautiful tone, I did find one aspect that was very inconsistant, that was SLOTTING. Granted, my playing skill (or lack of) had something to do with it, but 2 horns stood out as slotting very well, and 2 stood out as slotting very poorly (or loosely). I could play the same challenging (for me) passage on one horn without making mistakes, and play the same passage on another and stumble all over myself. Would this be due to differences in valve allignment and therefore correctable with a PVA? I'm trying to solve the "good horn-bad horn" mystery.

04-07-2004, 09:14 PM	#17 (permalink)
Mikey Forte User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,864	A valve alignment may indeed help the poor slotting, but a more likely culprit is the wrong gap. I imagine there is some inconsistancies in the way Bach solders the receiver to the leadpipe. I have resorted to bringing a digital caliper along when I am testing horns. Granted, the exact same gap may not work for everybody, but I have found with Bach trumpets that plus or minus a few thousandths from .125 or 1/8 of an inch seems to work for me. I don't measure the gap until I have played the horn for a bit, and if the horns is not slotting right, I measure the gap. Almost always, it is way under (and sometimes way over) that "magic" .125) I have also found that a little larger gap helps in the upper register, but you have to find the right compromise to fit the whole register of the horn. Again, this is what works for me. Mike

04-09-2004, 01:06 PM	#18 (permalink)
rebelatheart New Friend Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 5	Thanks for that tip, Mikey. You imply that this "optimal gap" may vary from person to person. Should I assume that this "optimal gap would also vary from horn to horn? I measured the gap (roughly) on my current main horn (King Legend Lg bore) and it's 0.25 inches. I've heard of people wrapping paper around their mouthpiece to experiment with increasing the gap, do you know of any "tricks" I could use to experiment by decreasing the gap?

04-09-2004, 01:57 PM	#19 (permalink)
Mikey Forte User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,864	Wow, if it is .250, that sounds like way too much gap. You have to be sure you are measuring as accurately as possible, which is why I bought my digital caliper. Unfortunately, I can think of only 3 ways to decrease the gap size. The first is to get a qualified repair person to unsolder the receiver, and move it further down the leadpipe. This is risky, since the leadpipe is tapered at that point, and you could end up with a leak. The second way is to have the repair person hone the inside walls of the receiver so the mouthpiece shank goes in further, thus decreasing the gap. Again, risky, as you don't want to hone too much. Perhaps the simplest and cheapest way is to have Bob Reeves machine your mouthpiece shank to fit his sleeves. Then, get sleeves in various sizes and play them all until you feel the horn "lock in". It's hard to tell which sleeve would be the "right one" without trying them all, as there are so many variables. When you decide on a certain sleeve, Reeves can solder that sleeve to the shank, so you have a solid mouthpiece again. But if you go the sleeve route, take the time to test each sleeve. I used to have the tendency to switch back and forth like crazy, blaming a missed note on the "wrong gap" Hope this helps......... Mike

04-09-2004, 07:17 PM	#20 (permalink)
rebelatheart New Friend Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 5	Hi Mikey, Yikes! All of those options sound kind of scary to me. I should probably leave well enough alone (when have I EVER done that?), because it slots pretty good, but maybe I'll "mickey mouse" something just to experiment, like maybe plastic washers/shims in the reciever or something. Of course with my luck they'll get stuck. Maybe if I contact the factory, they could tell me what (if any) the factory spec gap should be. I wondered if perhaps different mouthpieces would yield a different gap due to different diameter taper (i.e. thinner shank protruding in more and narrowing the gap), but the factory UMI mouthpiece gave the same measurement as the bach mouthpieces. The last time I took a horn into my local shop for a repair that required a re-solder (on a vintage Olds Special) they left a huge ring of solder in the horn that essentially changed the effetive bore of the horn from .460 to around .425! That made me a little gun shy, I guess.

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