Bell Constuction--What's Best? - Page 2

Manny Laureano · 10-18-2005, 07:40 PM

Hey, Chuck...

How did you rate marrying a member of the royal family? That IS Sarah Ferguson in the pic with you, no?Seriously, that's a sweet pic. I've always liked it and am glad you put it up.

Okay, back to our previously interrupted thread.

I saw a post where someone mentioned that the bump where the two parts meet would disrupt the flow of air and I would have to dispute that because the air is pretty much a non factor that late in the flare and because the bell serves as an amplifier for what happens in the mouthpiece. It all has to do with the stability of the bell and how it maintains the resonance. What I've understood is that the thickness of the bell is the important factor. I haven't studied the matter, just been in on conversations where I mostly kept my mouth shut.

It would be great if anybody could cite some studies from a reliable source that helps with this discussion.

(Uh, Derek... that's your cue)

ML

brian moon · 10-18-2005, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trickg

One piece SEAMLESS bells are terrible, just terrible...oh wait, what about Schilke? (Not sure if all are like this, but most Schilkes have one piece, seamless bells, drawn from a seamless tube. Mine is one piece, seamless and copper.)

Schilkes are electro formed as I understand it. Somebody correct me if I am wrong.

Tootsall · 10-18-2005, 09:13 PM

I've posted this link before. It shows interferometer photographs of the inside, outside and throat of a trumpet bell being "excited" at different frequencies. If you notice, there are regions or zones of the sheet brass that vibrate to a greater or lesser extent and there are regions or zones connecting these "diaphragms" where the vibration motion is much less.

To a large degree this demonstrates that there is a significant component of the overall sound that comes from the actual mechanical vibration of the bell. It doesn't take much of a stretch of the imagination to see how a discontinuity (such as might be caused by a bell seam) could affect the pattern of these bell vibrations.

OTO, it appears that things like the modulus of elasticity of the bell material (which will be different for different types of "brass") and the thickness of the bell can have an even greater effect on the overall bell vibration (and resultant sound). If you notice the higher frequencies appear to excite the bell further down the throat.... and therefore it appears that the placement of the brace (or lack thereof) would have a more severe effect on the higher ranges.

Good stuff... I hope to see more of this science from Dr. Moore in the future.

Oh... here's the link: http://vanadium.rollins.edu/~tmoore/...brations_1.htm

and here's a small bit of the main photo for those who aren't interested in viewing and reading the rest of his material....but I recommend you read through his stuff anyway.

Clarence · 10-18-2005, 09:15 PM

Wow tootsall that,s really cool!

Tootsall · 10-18-2005, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian moon

Quote:

Originally Posted by trickg

One piece SEAMLESS bells are terrible, just terrible...oh wait, what about Schilke? (Not sure if all are like this, but most Schilkes have one piece, seamless bells, drawn from a seamless tube. Mine is one piece, seamless and copper.)

Schilkes are electro formed as I understand it. Somebody correct me if I am wrong.

I am pretty sure they used to be, Brian... same as the Conn Coprion bells. I have read somewhere recently that they now use a different technique that involves forming the bell from a seamless tube... but I think the reference was to the so-called beryllium bells only (which are almost pure copper). I would be highly interested in knowing the forming techniques for their current "crop" of bells. Anyone know for certain?

trumplyr · 10-20-2005, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny Laureano

Hey, Chuck...

How did you rate marrying a member of the royal family? That IS Sarah Ferguson in the pic with you, no?Seriously, that's a sweet pic. I've always liked it and am glad you put it up.

Hey Manny,

Since I haven't met Chuck (yet ) I was thinking it's just a picture of a good looking chick with a guy that Chuck's trying to pawn off as himself.

What do ya think?

trickg · 10-20-2005, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian moon

Quote:

Originally Posted by trickg

One piece SEAMLESS bells are terrible, just terrible...oh wait, what about Schilke? (Not sure if all are like this, but most Schilkes have one piece, seamless bells, drawn from a seamless tube. Mine is one piece, seamless and copper.)

Schilkes are electro formed as I understand it. Somebody correct me if I am wrong.

To my knowledge, the only bells used by Schilke that are electroformed are the lightweight beryllium bells, which are now just really thin copper at this point. I could be wrong though. The rest of Schilke's one piece, seamless bells are (to my knowledge) drawn from a tube of brass or copper.

Solar Bell · 10-20-2005, 08:52 PM

Marty wrote:

Quote:

Since I haven't met Chuck (yet ) I was thinking it's just a picture of a good looking chick with a guy that Chuck's trying to pawn off as himself.

I think that myself sometimes!

ps
Sooner or later we will meet. After your concert.

-cw-

10-18-2005, 09:15 PM	#14 (permalink)
Clarence Mezzo Forte User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: san diego Posts: 769	Wow tootsall that,s really cool! __________________ You heard it here 1st, in what ever u do if u buy the ticket u take the ride! Stage 1XH Bb Phaeton 2030 Bb Jupiter flugle 846bl black Kersting Pocket trumpet Stage1 MP schilke 11 MP Sdsytems LCM77 wireless Shure PGX wireless

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10-18-2005, 07:40 PM	#11 (permalink)
Manny Laureano Utimate User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: USA Posts: 5,989	Hey, Chuck... How did you rate marrying a member of the royal family? That IS Sarah Ferguson in the pic with you, no?Seriously, that's a sweet pic. I've always liked it and am glad you put it up. Okay, back to our previously interrupted thread. I saw a post where someone mentioned that the bump where the two parts meet would disrupt the flow of air and I would have to dispute that because the air is pretty much a non factor that late in the flare and because the bell serves as an amplifier for what happens in the mouthpiece. It all has to do with the stability of the bell and how it maintains the resonance. What I've understood is that the thickness of the bell is the important factor. I haven't studied the matter, just been in on conversations where I mostly kept my mouth shut. It would be great if anybody could cite some studies from a reliable source that helps with this discussion. (Uh, Derek... that's your cue) ML

10-18-2005, 09:13 PM	#13 (permalink)
Tootsall Fortissimo User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Yee HAW! Posts: 4,641	I've posted this link before. It shows interferometer photographs of the inside, outside and throat of a trumpet bell being "excited" at different frequencies. If you notice, there are regions or zones of the sheet brass that vibrate to a greater or lesser extent and there are regions or zones connecting these "diaphragms" where the vibration motion is much less. To a large degree this demonstrates that there is a significant component of the overall sound that comes from the actual mechanical vibration of the bell. It doesn't take much of a stretch of the imagination to see how a discontinuity (such as might be caused by a bell seam) could affect the pattern of these bell vibrations. OTO, it appears that things like the modulus of elasticity of the bell material (which will be different for different types of "brass") and the thickness of the bell can have an even greater effect on the overall bell vibration (and resultant sound). If you notice the higher frequencies appear to excite the bell further down the throat.... and therefore it appears that the placement of the brace (or lack thereof) would have a more severe effect on the higher ranges. Good stuff... I hope to see more of this science from Dr. Moore in the future. Oh... here's the link: http://vanadium.rollins.edu/~tmoore/...brations_1.htm and here's a small bit of the main photo for those who aren't interested in viewing and reading the rest of his material....but I recommend you read through his stuff anyway.

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