best finish/plate for lightweight bach? - Page 2

MUSICandCHARACTER · 01-25-2005, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nieuwguyski

I don't know exactly what "black nickel" is, but it ain't nickel silver. Folks, nickel silver isn't platable -- it's an alloy, like brass, that horns are either made of or not.

We should be more precise. Nickel Silver is an alloy. Nickel plate is just what it sounds like.

Black Nickel I do believe in Nickel Plate with Black Chrome over it or nickel plate with a substance added to make it look black (or even blue). There seems to be several definitions.

But often, Nickel Silver and Nickel Plate are used interchangeably (although perhaps they shouldn't). Nickel plate is a topic of conversation for a horn. Tim Wendt when he worked with Kanstul to make the 1500TW model insisted that none of the parts be nickel plated.

Other like the nickel plate and the sound it produces.

Jim

bigaggietrumpet · 01-25-2005, 02:05 AM

Understand right now that I'm just theorizing out my rear and that none of this is fact, just stuff out of my head.

I believe they call this the "Black Annodized" finish. What probably happens is that they take the horn and nickel plate the thing. Next, the place the horn in a vat of chemical. Once the horn is in the chemical, an electric charge is added. This stimulates a chemical reaction with the chemicals in the vat (nickel is quite reactive, best as I recall from chemistry), which through the miracles of chemistry cause a metallic black finish to appear.

Again, pure conjecture (do I have an imagination or what?)

Heavens2kadonka · 01-25-2005, 11:04 AM

Quote:

I don't know exactly what "black nickel" is, but it ain't nickel silver. Folks, nickel silver isn't platable -- it's an alloy, like brass, that horns are either made of or not.

Yeah, I didn't know that....

Doesnt it seem like nickel plated instruments wear down much more quickly than other plated instruments?

Van

Tootsall · 01-25-2005, 11:45 AM

Should be the opposite, Van. Nickel is a far harder material than gold or silver OR copper (about 2X as hard as copper in a similar state of heat treat and 1.5X as hard as brass again at same heat treat state). It is one of the alloying elements in tool steels which are known for their hardness. It transfers heat at about 1/4 the rate of silver, gold or copper.

Some of the old makers of instruments used nickel-silver for their slides because they wouldn't wear and loosen up and they also resist corrosion a lot easier.

My Eterna cornet has nickel-silver slides and when I initially asked Leigh if he could remove the plating so that the bright brass would "fit more" with the finish of the horn he advised me that it would be a) very difficult due to the hardness and b) very stupid due to the benefits of leaving the nickel silver there. 30 years old and they still work slick as a baby's smear in a diaper.

I think that more horns used nickel silver (either plated or solid) in the old days and those horns have been around a LOT longer therefore our perception is that they don't look as good. In reality they are probably a lot easier to "clean up" than had they been made of different materials.

Heavens2kadonka · 01-25-2005, 11:49 AM

I meant nickel plating, not nickel silver.

Van

Tootsall · 01-25-2005, 11:58 AM

Nickel is harder than nickel silver. Therefore nickel plating will be harder than nickel silver.

MUSICandCHARACTER · 01-25-2005, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tootsall

Nickel is harder than nickel silver. Therefore nickel plating will be harder than nickel silver.

That is good to know ... and it makes sense. When Tim Wendt was looking for an all around horn that didn't get bright, he stayed away from nickel plate. Makes sense. Now on a horn you want to be a tad brighter, nickel plate might be a good option.

Although I still think the bell material makes much more of a difference that the plating or lacquer.

Jim

bigaggietrumpet · 01-25-2005, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MUSICandCHARACTER

That is good to know ... and it makes sense. When Tim Wendt was looking for an all around horn that didn't get bright, he stayed away from nickel plate. Makes sense. Now on a horn you want to be a tad brighter, nickel plate might be a good option.

Although I still think the bell material makes much more of a difference that the plating or lacquer.

Jim

But what about with the Kanstul ZKT 1500? It has the nickel, and yet is much darker than the 1500TW? I think that has more to do with bell weight then anything else.

eclipse trumpets · 01-25-2005, 02:23 PM

Hi All

Just my opinion of course, but if you want the horn to keep the same character it currently has then i could only say to get a sporty scratch finish with polished accents and then lacquer it.

Gold is lovely but will change the sound and maybe the response of the horn to some extent.
Gold is the finish that least affects a horn from its raw state as the application is so very thin compared to silver and much thinner than lacquer.
Gold as far as i see it allows the instrument to speak quicker (response), so that is not a bad thing to have upgraded response times.
But if you want that round,warm sound that you say it has now then taking the lacquer off and covering with a thin gold plate may take away just a touch of the warmth i think.

The good thing is that there are many different lacquers available these days so you are not stuck with simple clear gloss lacquer if that does not excite you too much.
Mind you, put that clear gloss over the top of a strad done in the scratch finish with polished accents and then you have a different beast altogether. (very elegant if done right)

If someone can host the pics then i can put up some examples for you.

Best Wishes

Leigh

nieuwguyski · 01-25-2005, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heavens2kadonka

Doesnt it seem like nickel plated instruments wear down much more quickly than other plated instruments?

Can you give us an example of a nickel-plated instrument that has shown the wear you refer to? I'm skeptical too -- nickel plate is hard stuff.

01-25-2005, 02:05 AM	#12 (permalink)
bigaggietrumpet Mezzo Forte User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: College Station,TX Posts: 814	Understand right now that I'm just theorizing out my rear and that none of this is fact, just stuff out of my head. I believe they call this the "Black Annodized" finish. What probably happens is that they take the horn and nickel plate the thing. Next, the place the horn in a vat of chemical. Once the horn is in the chemical, an electric charge is added. This stimulates a chemical reaction with the chemicals in the vat (nickel is quite reactive, best as I recall from chemistry), which through the miracles of chemistry cause a metallic black finish to appear. Again, pure conjecture (do I have an imagination or what?) __________________ Michael Smith Hullabaloo: The official band of Texas A&M Basketball Kanstul 1537/ Schilke 14 LA Olds Studio

01-25-2005, 11:49 AM	#15 (permalink)
Heavens2kadonka Forte User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Carthage, TN Posts: 1,283	I meant nickel plating, not nickel silver. Van __________________ Stage 1 California Light '94 Bach Strad 37 1900 Eb Cornet LOUD Steve Patrick 10 1/2 C LOUD LM93

01-25-2005, 02:23 PM	#19 (permalink)
eclipse trumpets Piano User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: England Posts: 417	Hi All Just my opinion of course, but if you want the horn to keep the same character it currently has then i could only say to get a sporty scratch finish with polished accents and then lacquer it. Gold is lovely but will change the sound and maybe the response of the horn to some extent. Gold is the finish that least affects a horn from its raw state as the application is so very thin compared to silver and much thinner than lacquer. Gold as far as i see it allows the instrument to speak quicker (response), so that is not a bad thing to have upgraded response times. But if you want that round,warm sound that you say it has now then taking the lacquer off and covering with a thin gold plate may take away just a touch of the warmth i think. The good thing is that there are many different lacquers available these days so you are not stuck with simple clear gloss lacquer if that does not excite you too much. Mind you, put that clear gloss over the top of a strad done in the scratch finish with polished accents and then you have a different beast altogether. (very elegant if done right) If someone can host the pics then i can put up some examples for you. Best Wishes Leigh __________________ Eclipse Trumpets Eclipsetrumpets.com

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01-25-2005, 11:45 AM	#14 (permalink)
Tootsall Fortissimo User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Yee HAW! Posts: 4,641	Should be the opposite, Van. Nickel is a far harder material than gold or silver OR copper (about 2X as hard as copper in a similar state of heat treat and 1.5X as hard as brass again at same heat treat state). It is one of the alloying elements in tool steels which are known for their hardness. It transfers heat at about 1/4 the rate of silver, gold or copper. Some of the old makers of instruments used nickel-silver for their slides because they wouldn't wear and loosen up and they also resist corrosion a lot easier. My Eterna cornet has nickel-silver slides and when I initially asked Leigh if he could remove the plating so that the bright brass would "fit more" with the finish of the horn he advised me that it would be a) very difficult due to the hardness and b) very stupid due to the benefits of leaving the nickel silver there. 30 years old and they still work slick as a baby's smear in a diaper. I think that more horns used nickel silver (either plated or solid) in the old days and those horns have been around a LOT longer therefore our perception is that they don't look as good. In reality they are probably a lot easier to "clean up" than had they been made of different materials.

01-25-2005, 11:58 AM	#16 (permalink)
Tootsall Fortissimo User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Yee HAW! Posts: 4,641	Nickel is harder than nickel silver. Therefore nickel plating will be harder than nickel silver.

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