Reverend

ST,

You got it!!

Leigh,

Good post! You're right...in the end, it IS all about the music!

Blessings,

__________________
Michael Guevara, DMM
Cinco Ranch Conservatory of Music
www.cincoranchmusic.com
Golden Trumpet Ministries
Authorized Stage 1 and Fides Dealer, Texas and Southern US

Still Trying

Michael,

I respect you greatly and consider you a friend. Please don't take personally what I am about to say to Alex.


Alex,

Everybody knows that paying off credit cards monthly avoids interest payments. But most people use credit cards in the first place because they can’t pay off purchases monthly and have to rely on extended payments. If most people paid off their credit cards monthly, banks would stop issuing them because there would be no profit in it for the banks. Moreover, Michael Guevara has told me personally, and I believe one of your other dealers has written in this forum that their motivation in selling Zeus trumpets derives from wishing to make good horns available to children, whose families cannot afford Bachs. Those are the families-one of your prime targets according to your dealers-who are least likely to be able to avoid interest payments by making first a $500 payment and them monthly $250 payments on a Zeus G. So my assertion that the horns are not interest free because of the way they are likely to be paid off may be a laughable assertion to you. But your implications that people who don’t pay off their credit cards monthly are just ignorant, is really a slam at the very people buying your horns in the first place. It’s also cruel, insensitive, and arrogant to families with financial problems. As a matter of fact I seem to recall, when you first started posting about the Zeus on TH, that you said several times you could be selling the Zeus for more money, but you wanted a nice horn available to everyone, not just those who could afford expensive trumpets. Well, the "everyone who can't aford expensive trumpets" is the group you're laughing at now for not paying off all their credit cards monthly, Alex.

And, Alex, I never meant to imply that Zeus trumpets are mass produced. If I only implied that I apologize. I meant to state it as plainly as I could. It’s probably true they aren’t made in large numbers. But that is not the definition of a custom made horn. By your description of the manufacturing techniques utilized by the Kanstul factory, every single horn they produce is a "custom" built horn. By your definition of "custom" built, the Kanstul built French Besson I own is a custom Kanstul. It was made in small numbers at the Kanstul factory with the same quality standards as apply to the Signature horns from parts manufactured in house. It has options too. It came with 2 tuning slides and an extra set of valve caps. In head-to-head competition with one of your Zeus trumpets it came out on top also. I played both of them side by side. Now you can make snide remarks about my playing too, but I held down a symphony chair for 11 years, and used to make my living by playing trumpet. I’m not intimidated by you. But neither Kanstul, nor Boosey Hawkes ever asserted the Besson is an example of a Kansul “custom” built trumpet, nor did they try to use that perverted definition as a means of selling the horn. And by the way, I bought my Besson brand new in the box for less than you are selling the Zeus G.

If I was Kanstul, I would have a problem with your assertion that your massed produced horn (albeit mass produced in tiny numbers) is an example of Kanstul “custom” work. Kanstul has never showcased a Zeus as an example of their custom work. Jack Kanstul has even posted on the Kanstul forum that Kanstul reserves their best effort for the horns bearing their signature. In my opinion you’re insulting one of the finest trumpet manufacturers in the world to assert your Zeus is a sample of their “custom” work.

Offering two tuning slides, heavy valve caps, and a half dozen finish options doth not a custom horn make. If I requested a Zeus with a different lead pipe design, could I get it? If I requested a Zeus with so much as a different style pinky ring, could I get it? I can get those very minor things and far more from any real manufacturer of custom built instruments (Eclipse, Lawler, Blackburn, whoever). I bet I can even get them from Kanstul, if I contacted them directly and asked to speak with a representative of their custom shop. You’ve made up your own unique definition of “custom” built trumpet. I feel sorry for your dealers. You really have a fine product, if you’ll ever learn to represent it fairly. But by making delusional claims that are patently idiotic to everybody except the parents of beginning band students, you saddle your poor dealers with the heavy burden of trying to sell your horns on the one hand and trying to distance themselves from your embarrassing assertions on the other. I bet your own dealers are financially strapped, or they wouldn’t be trying to pick up a few extra bucks by representing you.

By the way, Alex, my name is Jesse Harbin. So now you don't have to be confused about that. And in the past I have tried to give both you and your horn every benefit of a doubt. I’ve bragged on it. I’ve recommended to people that they try a Zeus before buying any other trumpet. I spent time this past week trying to talk a guy, who’s been looking at a Conn Vintage One, into trying one of Michael Guevara’s Zeus trumpets, before he makes a buying decision. But I won’t do it again. When you start denigrating the people, who are struggling financially to the point that they would consider buying one of your horns, you’ve passed into a realm, where I can no longer support either you or your product. And let’s face it. If money were no object, every trumpet player on the planet would be lining up to buy his own uniquely designed, truly custom built trumpet. They might be lining up to buy a Wild Thing. They might be lining up to buy a Callet Jazz. They might be lining up to buy a Signature Kanstul. All of these horns are made in the Kanstul factory. They wouldn’t be lining up to buy a Zeus. You need to stop knocking the financially strained, Alex. You're getting rich to the point of arrogancy from their financially challenged attempts to provide their children with musical opportunities.

__________________
S.T.

What do we have that we did not receive, and if we received it, why do we glory, as if we received it not?

Reverend

ST,

I thank you for your candor, and do consider you my good friend as well!

............



It really doesn't have to be this way folks...it really doesn't have to be.

It is my desire to let everyone speak their mind, so long as they do not go TOO far overboard! That line, as of yet, is still a little fuzzy to me. Perhaps I am a little too lenient with the posts that I allow to stand, and need to start flexing a little "moderator muscle." But it is a shame that such a great venue, where one should be able to ask questions and receive "on-point" replies, sours so quickly.

It really doesn't have to be this way.

Blessings,

__________________
Michael Guevara, DMM
Cinco Ranch Conservatory of Music
www.cincoranchmusic.com
Golden Trumpet Ministries
Authorized Stage 1 and Fides Dealer, Texas and Southern US

gzent

This is all quite entertaining.

Alex claims all trumpets from the Kanstul factory are made with the same process. Jack Kanstul claims the Kanstul brand horns to be superior to the non-Kanstuls from the Kanstul factory. Hmm, who to believe?

Jack, Hello, can you clarify?

Here's my take. The Zeus G grabbed my attention 16 months ago because it was a Bach Strad clone at a great price ($975). But, I decided to buy it because of Kanstul's reputation as a builder, not because of the store that was selling it. I'd probably do it again, its a very fine, Strad-like horn, but there are more choices to consider now.

IMO, sure, you can occasionally find a good price here or there on a closeout or an overstock sale, but buying a Zeus G. from an online dealer is still the fastest, cheapest and most reliable way to get a Strad clone that you can confidently take to a gig right out of the box.

Greg

__________________
Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revalation
And the mind's true liberation

trickg

Alex,

I'm going to address some of the things you posted in reference to my posts point by point.

So don’t even go there Pat or anyone, trying to imply that there are different quality standards makes you sound silly to anyone who knows better. There is only ONE quality standard. Anyone who says otherwise is either a liar or really misinformed.
Do you mean to tell me that Kanstul's student line horns are assembled and finished with the same care that goes into his Signature lines, or that the materials are all the same? Not likely. A friend of mine, a highly skilled brass tech has said to me that one of the biggest differences between a student model horn and a pro level horn is how they are put together. Simply put, from what I can see, there is more time and attention put into the Wild Thing than the ZueS G, and that more than anything else accounts for the price difference. I think that Flip is probably charging a fair price for his horn, and I also think that you are charging a fair price for your horn, but in the end it simply comes down to number of hours that are put in to create the finished product.

You should never compare a brushed brass instrument against a polished silver instrument. They are finished very differently. All ZeuS instruments are finished impeccably and certainly to the standards of a Bach. There is only one way to make an instrument. Pat, Your explanation is very unclear. You are trying very hard to influence those who have not seen a ZeuS personally. ZeuS owners surely can’t take you seriously and wonder about your motivations. I repeat, there is one standard of quality at the factory, and its second to none. Also to correct you on something, a brushed brass instrument does not have to be buffed. It’s scratched brushed. Should it have been scratched brushed more? Is this what you are saying? Are you saying that the braces looked crooked on it or were falling off? Let’s not get silly and invent things Patrick.
You are coming dangerously close to calling me a liar, Alex. I'm not trying to influence anyone, I'm simply reporting what I saw. I apologize if that doesn't cast the best light on your instrument, but I'm certainly not going to lie on your behalf. I didn't fall off the apple truck yesterday. I spent 10 years of my life making a living playing my trumpet and I've been playing for almost 23 years. I know what I'm looking at when I look at a trumpet whether it has a satin lacquer finish or a bright silver finish. Besides, I don't know what you are getting upset about. I seem to recall that I gave a good review of the ZueS G that I played on Monday. With the .470 slide, it played VERY well, perhaps better than my Bach. However, with the original slide, it wasn't as good as my Bach. And the fit and finish didn't match the Wild Thing. I'm not saying that there were major flaws because there weren't, but there were minor things and there weren't ANY on the Wild Thing. Even my Bach brand new didn't match the fit and finish of the Wild Thing. By the way, on John Miconi's ZeuS, there was a brace that was on slightly crooked. Of the two upright braces, (one on the tuning slide and one just behind) they are supposed to be parallel. They weren't. The rear brace was just slightly askew, as was one of the braces just underneath the third valve slide holding the slide stop assembly. I'm not inventing things. All I have done is report back what I have seen. So, that being said, I HAVE seen things that weren't fitted quite right on a ZeuS. As for the scratched finish and whether or not the parts should be buffed, if there are blemishes on the parts, YES THEY SHOULD be buffed out, even before the scratch finish is applied.

You are imagining things again Pat. The seller of the WT does not assemble any horn. You also make it sound like the manufacturer does really shoddy work until the trumpet “guru” seller makes the instrument actually playable. As a repair technician, I would sure like to know in detail exactly what this expensive tweaking entails before I would spend my money on the instrument.
We've now (maybe) established that Flip does not assemble the horns. However, I never once said that the manufacturer does shoddy work. However, I do believe that they do quick work and because of that, there are going to be some minor imperfections to the assembly of the horn. For starters, extra solder in the joints. That is something that the "guru" might check for and remove if there is excess. Valve alignment. This is something that can be expertly adjusted. Brace placement. It is no secret that a brace in the wrong spot can adversely affect resonance in the horn. Again, it is my understanding that Flip adjusts the bracing on each horn to insure maximum resonance and response.

Before you evaluate playability of an instrument and attempt to make it public, your own playing ability should be evaluated first to make everything legitimate. If you recall, I sold a ZeuS G early on to one of your good friends. He did mention to me that your playing is not at a high level. Please make this clear before you evaluate any instrument. Interestingly, some of the best ZeuS players wanted nothing to do with the .470 slide, stating that they did not want to change the character of the instrument as it was with the original slide. The instrument is impressive with the standard slide and that is why it’s a very successful product for myself and for my dealers. Furthermore Pat, your Bach is not even the standard model and not equivalent to the ZeuS in bore size.
My playing not at a high level? Define "high level". It's plenty high enough that I know the difference in how a horn plays. Remember, I did make my living as a trumpet-playing musician for over 10 years, so we'll leave my playing level at that. I have never had a problem getting or keeping a gig. If my playing was not at a high enough level, I wouldn't be able to keep a gig. While it's true that I'm no Arturo Sandoval or Wynton Marsalis, I hold my own in any of the ensembles that I have played in and currently play in here in the Washington DC area.

I have never claimed to be an excellent trumpet player, a cut above and on a national level, although I do consider myself to be a good trumpet player. I used to be better than I am now because it was all I did for quite some time. Now, I play a lot on the side. I'm currently involved in 4 bands, 3 of them as a trumpet player and all of them consider me to be a solid, contributing member of the ensemble.

As for that "good friend" that you say made the comment about my playing, there are two friends of mine that you have sold a ZueS to, not just one. With one of those guys, he and I share different sides of the same coin. He's more of a lead player, I'm a little more rooted in legit because simply put, my lead playing register is not as strong as his. However, I'll put my sound up there against anyone's. The other guy has only been playing for 3 years, but he has me listed as an inspiration on his web page where he lists people that inspire him. Not that this says anything about my playing, but suffice it to say that I can say with conviction that I don't suck and I am more than qualified enough to be able to play a horn and rate it's playability.

By the way, NEITHER of those guys still have their ZeuS Gs. They BOTH sold them less than a year after purchasing them. Call it what you want. I think that the horn is solid, but I don't think that it's all you claim it to be.

When you say "some of the best ZueS players" prefer the original slide, how many exactly are you talking about? Two, three? I certainly don't think that they are in the trumpet-playing majority. Simply put, the ZueS played better FOR ME with the .470 slide. It wasn't quite as resistant above high C. By the way, the reason that Paul even HAS the other slides is because he thought that the horn was stuffy with the original slide. So did I. I don't think that I'm imagining things here.

As for my Bach not being the "standard" model, it is in fact the standard Bach configuration for a large bore horn. It is the standard LB Bach Strad in .462 with a #25 bell. That IS standard for a LB Bach. I didn't expect the tuning slide to fit MY horn although I suspect that it would have fit a ML Bach Strad.

Patrick, you have spent enough time on these forums to know that the ZeuS G is based on a Bach, so my goal was achieved with that design. Of course you should be able to figure out that when one creates a Bach style instrument, it will not be an original design, that is not the intention. Who could I have designed the ZeuS G when it’s based on my own vintage Bach? Think before you write Patrick.
However, I am impressed enough to see that you did notice the very close resemblance between the ZeuS G and the Bach. The goal was to make it the same but only better. This we have achieved successfully.
I always think before I write. I have played and held vintage Bachs and to say that your ZueS G design is "based on" that of your Mount Vernon Bach is kind of a stretch, and even you said to me once that it was designed more to sound like the Vintage Bach more so than it was designed after the measurements of the vintage Bach. The Mount Vernon Bach has a tighter wrap than the newer Bachs. If your ZeuS had the same wrap, then the tuning slide wouldn't have fit in my horn at all because the slide wouldn't have lined up with the openings. I stand by my statement that your ZeuS G was designed in part on the specs of the newer model Bach Strads, even if the sound is intended to be that of the vintage models.

Here you go again Pat. Who are you trying to have believe this? Certainly not ZeuS owners.
Again, I'm not TRYING to get anyone to believe anything. I'm merely reporting things as I saw them. What I say of course is my opinion, but I think if you ask around you will find that my opinion is generally fairly well respected.

You are not making sense again Pat. You did notice that for $600 less a player would get a better instrument than the Bach. However you are comparing different specification when comparing it to the WT or the Eclipse. The Eclipse is a work of art and is unaffordable to most players, there is a market for that sort of instrument, although a small one and it is also wrong to suggest that it will work for everyone. The WT is a large bore trumpet with a very different shaped bell. Very different instruments. If you need an instrument with the specifications of the WT or the Eclipse then you should buy an instrument with that design. The ZeuS G was not intended to have the specs of the WT or the look and specs of the Eclipse. It was intended to be a better Bach for $600 less.
I said that it was a "solid" horn. I never said it was better than a standard Bach. That is an opinion best left up to whoever decides to play either one of them. However, compared side by side with the Wild Thing, it just doesn't stand up. You say that they are very different instruments, but they are both Bb trumpets. In any case I seem to recall once that you claimed your ZeuS G would out play and out perform ANY of the so-called "Superhorns" and the Wild Thing was on that list. I'm sorry, but in my opinion, it doesn't. The Wild Thing is a superior instrument to the ZeuS G in virtually every aspect. But for $2550, the price for the silver-plated model, it had better out perform any horn that costs $1500 less.

Truth be told, if I were looking for a Bach type horn for my next horn purchase, I would seriously consider the ZueS G. But I'm not. I'm looking for something different. I'm not even sure that the Wild Thing fits that bill. I have YET to say that I think that the ZeuS G is a bad horn or not worth the money, because I simply don't think that is the case. It is a formidable instrument and it is priced very competitively. I was not trying to get anyone to believe anything about the ZueS. I was only reporting it as I saw it.

Alex, I'm surprised that you attacked me the way that you did. I thought my review of Paul's ZeuS was actually a favorable review. Then you try to dismiss me by making some claim that John Miconi said that my level of playing is not that high and that I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I'll ask him about that when I see him on Saturday.

__________________
Patrick Gleason
email me at: trickg1@hotmail.com

"What we do in life echoes in eternity"
"At my signal, unleash hell."
- Maximus Decimus Meridius

Zachary Music

Patrick, sorry man your story just does not ring true. You are saying the complete opposite to what others and my customers say about the ZeuS G every day. Yes, I stand by what I said a long time ago. The ZeuS G will match any trumpet at any price. Just make sure you are comparing trumpets with the same specifications.

This just came in today: See what I mean.

“I havent stopped talking about the ZeuS Guarnerius. After four years of playing on a Bach Strad model 47, it was as if there was a whole new world power of trumpets in town. And there's one BETTER (Olympus), you say? That is hard to believe, but I sure do!! My friends are all tired of hearing about how I got to play the best trumpet in the world. Keep up the unmatchable work!
Dave”

Leigh, I agree with everything you say. I build handcrafted guitars so I know exactly what you business is about so don’t think for a moment that I don’t appreciate the fine work that you do. One thing I would object to however is that a $1000 trumpet is not a “cheap” trumpet. Where I come from, that’s actually a lot of money and should buy a world class instrument and with ZeuS it does. I have the opportunity to market and sell any product I want but I chose to make my products affordable. I like to cater to all musicians who appreciate my products, regardless of how rich they are.

Jessie, you are correct, I have seen my evil ways and will discontinue offering my NO Interest payment plan immediately. It was truly cruel of me to take advantage of all those poor unsuspecting people who are now faced with huge credit card interest payments and will probably be ruined for life because of their ZeuS purchase. For anyone reading this who is currently doing the payment plan, I demand payment in full immediately in order to save you from paying interest on your credit cards. i am doing this because I care.

I also am guilty of enticing destitute people in becoming ZeuS dealers. How they came up with the cash to buy the initial 3 instruments, I will never know. They probably had to engage in serious illegal activity to do it. I hate to think what terrible crimes ZeuS is responsible for. Now I call that dedication to the ZeuS brand.

I do have some good news however. This is what happened today:

I sold a flugel ARL to a repeat customer.
I sold an Olympus AGX to a new customer. It will be a new finish (brushed gold with polished gold trim)
I sold 2 instruments to a new customer, an Olympus ABL, and a Flugel ARL.
I signed up a new dealer (also on welfare) who will be sending by FedEx the payment in full for 3 instruments. Olympus S, ZeuS C RL, ZeuS Bb RL.
I also got a serious inquiry about another possible C purchase and another for an Olympus purchase.
I called the factory to double my flugel order I placed a few days ago.
The day is not finished yet.

So anyone who can beat this please speak up, I want to learn your style.

Alex

Ash

Yea, I just remember some threads on TH which, to a certain extent, described problems with returning a horn. I know they're fine horns. BTW, the finishes on the O look fantastic!

__________________
1974 Raw Brass 37
1933 King Cornet

MUSICandCHARACTER

Alex said:
I also am guilty of enticing destitute people in becoming ZeuS dealers. How they came up with the cash to buy the initial 3 instruments, I will never know. They probably had to engage in serious illegal activity to do it. I hate to think what terrible crimes ZeuS is responsible for. Now I call that dedication to the ZeuS brand.

Yep, that's me. A crime spree so I could become a ZeuS dealer. Mr. Zachary held my kids hostage (oops, I only have one kid). Somehow, I think the point of my post was missed. But read what you want. I sell ZeuS for my own reasons -- NEVER has Mr. Zachary misrepresented anything to me -- EVER.

I am well known for being a man of honor. I consider my word and my honor things to cherish as fine possessions. The only reason I posted my personal situation was to let people know that I have only had an opportunity to play a few horns. I know things will change and soon. But until then, my scope will not include playing a Wild Thing or an Eclipse. I can live with that.

To even suggest that Mr. Zachary is in the coercion business is ludicrous. And when I say that he is one of the most knowledgeable people I have ever talked to about trumpets, I mean it. If you think I haven't talked to knowledgeable people before Mr. Zachary, you would be wrong.

I am having I hard time determining why all the venom in some of these posts. Is there a movement to bring Mr. Zachary and ZeuS down? I thought the primary purpose of these boards was to inform and share info. I know at times salesmanship has gone overboard (Jack Kanstul finishes every post with how you can buy a horn from him -- we know, we know).

Many of the "manufacturers" on the TM boards are also forum moderators (or related). Flip, Tom, Jack ... etc. Alex is not. That leaves him free to post honest replies (admittedly in his own style).

I have really appreciated the information provided on the Eclipse horns -- even if this thread didn't begin in regards to horns but to a payment plan.

M&CHARACTER

__________________
Dr. Jim Fox
Licensed Mental Health Therapist
Mouthpiece chart: www.ibowtie.com/tmptmpccharts.html

trickg

Alex,

Again, this is not meant as a criticizm at all of the ZueS G. How many times do I have to say that I think that the ZueS G is a great horn for the money? You may have customers saying all kinds of things about the ZeuS and that's fine, but I stand by my assesments, word for word, and those who know me around this site and the TH know that I'm not one to either exagerate, or make false proclamations.

You say that your trumpet will match any horn at any price, then you make the stipulation that the specifications have to be the same. The last time I checked, according to you anyway, the only horn with those specifications is the ZueS G. So are you saying that it's unfair to compare the ZueS G and the Wild Thing simply because they have different specifications? That kind of narrows the playing field doesn't it?

Let's just call it what it is and not try to glorify it or proclaim it to be something it's not. The ZueS G is a great alternative to a Bach Strad, especially for the money.

That is my assesment and my opinion, and the last time I checked, I'm still entitled to an opinion.

__________________
Patrick Gleason
email me at: trickg1@hotmail.com

"What we do in life echoes in eternity"
"At my signal, unleash hell."
- Maximus Decimus Meridius

Thevor

Wow Music you are a CHARACTER, especailly when you make statements like I am having a hard time determining why all the venom in some of these posts. When in reality you started by bashing two different trumpet sellers on this site yet your claim was the thread about "a credit plan". Mr. MC what part of the response are you really surprised at? defense is venom?

The Eclipse has become ridiculously expensive, especially and the exchange rate between the US$ and the UK£ continues widen do to lower the dollar.

The Wild Thing can only be bought from Flip (no dealers), and is much more expensive than a ZeuS -- with a $200 dollar return fee.

ZeuS takes a back seat to none, IMO. The very best in horns AND some amazing finishes

(Jack Kanstul finishes every post with how you can buy a horn from him -- we know, we know).

By your own admission you have never seen either of the mentioned horns nor have you played them, yet you can comment on them? Toward the end, you include a snipe at Mr. Kanstul whom has posted twice in the Zues forum and it was graciously answering a question.

Many of the "manufacturers" on the TM boards are also forum moderators (or related). Flip, Tom, Jack ... etc. Alex is not..... and your point is what MC? These guys may be moderators of their own horn forums but that is the extent of their influence. You speak as if by being a moderator there is a greater sphere of influence which Alex does not posesses. (and Alex has never offered any behind the scenes suggestions for a post with his dealers in the Zues forum?.... nah, not Alex)

I am not a dealer nor am I beholding to one, (my only horn purchases have been a student trumpet, my Olds Ambassador and my sons pro quality Bach knockoff). I do know manufacturing and a little about trumpets through my own efforts.

You can have two tuning bows, one that could go on a Signature and one on a ZG, essentially they are identical. The mechanical process of manufacturing the pieces are indistinguishable. In reality, from experience in manufacturing where the cost really soars is in the finish and detail of the product. This process can be markedly different between two identical pieces. For example, in a standard line, everyone could possibly handle the soldering of the braces but I can promise you that Zig has only "his best" handle the Signature line braces. (this is just common sense) Its simple, there are degrees of quality and expertise. Zig won't use his highest paid employees on a resale line, unless the buyer is paying for the additional attention.

BTW, the Zues is probably one of the best instruments for it's price break, but the best ever? There will never be a concensus on that as long as two trumpet players are still breathing and own different horns, never. Buying trumpet is like dating, we all have different characteristics that we love and some we won't accept, while the next guy might love the things we couldn't stand, to each his own........... now, I think my next date is going to be British.

__________________
53' Olds Ambassador