MUSICandCHARACTER

Thevor said:
Wow Music you are a CHARACTER, especailly when you make statements like I am having a hard time determining why all the venom in some of these posts. When in reality you started by bashing two different trumpet sellers on this site yet your claim was the thread about "a credit plan". Mr. MC what part of the response are you really surprised at? defense is venom?

I hope I am a character with character.

Defense does not equal venom. In fact a good defense (verbal) in the form a logic will never resort to negative, hurtful things. Bashing two different trumpet sellers? I thought I stated facts. I was wrong on one (the price of the Eclipse) for which I certainly thanked those who set me straight.

By your own admission you have never seen either of the mentioned horns nor have you played them, yet you can comment on them? Toward the end, you include a snipe at Mr. Kanstul whom has posted twice in the Zues forum and it was graciously answering a question.

This is a very small forum. I would venture to say that most people read every post. My comments are usually facts (I cannot offer an opinion about a horn I have not played). It was opinion related to my observation about Mr. Kanstul. You are very correct on that front. I apologize. It lent very little to my point.

Many of the "manufacturers" on the TM boards are also forum moderators (or related). Flip, Tom, Jack ... etc. Alex is not..... and your point is what MC? These guys may be moderators of their own horn forums but that is the extent of their influence. You speak as if by being a moderator there is a greater sphere of influence which Alex does not posesses.

Actually, I think being a moderator and the primary person or persons for the horns limits discussion. Alex is more free to speak his mind.

(and Alex has never offered any behind the scenes suggestions for a post with his dealers in the Zues forum?.... nah, not Alex)

Hmmm ... a conspiracy theory. (Just kidding ) Alex, actually lets us do our own thing. I know he has not liked what I have posted in the past, he may not like them in the future.

For example, in a standard line, everyone could possibly handle the soldering of the braces but I can promise you that Zig has only "his best" handle the Signature line braces. (this is just common sense) Its simple, there are degrees of quality and expertise. Zig won't use his highest paid employees on a resale line, unless the buyer is paying for the additional attention.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I take two points from this paragraph. One, that the best employees would naturally work on the Kanstul signature lines which suggests that there is more than one line making trumpets. Two, Alex or others who have Kanstul make horns to their specifications do not pay additional attention (certainly Flip advertises that he does).

Kanstul makes many instruments. Trumpets, cornets, marching brass, trombones, a new line of bass trombones (with excellent reviews BTW). It is a small plant. I'll bet they makes a bunch of Kanstul Chicago models, then retool and make another model, retool, and make ZeuS horns, retool and make Wild Things. My guess is (from some data I have heard, but cannot verify) that the same people make all the various trumpets. Second, I know Alex is in contact with Zig often and visits the factory often. Not that I think it is necessary to assure quality with Zig -- but it is good business to have a relationship with your partners.

BTW, the Zues is probably one of the best instruments for it's price break, but the best ever? There will never be a concensus on that as long as two trumpet players are still breathing and own different horns, never. Buying trumpet is like dating, we all have different characteristics that we love and some we won't accept, while the next guy might love the things we couldn't stand, to each his own........... now, I think my next date is going to be British.

You and I agree on this point without dissent. It was nice of you to say what you did about the ZeuS line. Brass players are all different. There are many horns to choose from. Thousands of mouthpieces. It is wonderful. Many choices and many excellent ones to choose from -- what a blessing!

Your choice of using the dating analogy is interesting. I have heard many people call their trumpets "their wife." But dating is better analogy because we are rarely "married" to our horns. Styles change, our embouchures change, our performing duties change. We often change horns and mouthpieces. How nice to have the choice. And I think your choice of a date analogy is right on. If you do "go British" let us know what you think.

Take care,

M&C

__________________
Dr. Jim Fox
Licensed Mental Health Therapist
Mouthpiece chart: www.ibowtie.com/tmptmpccharts.html

Still Trying

Alex,

You advertise your payment plan to be interest free, and it's not-not unless a buyer is in the financial condition to pay off his credit cards each and every month. And the customer base you and your dealers appeal to with cheap trumpets is highly unlikely to be able to do that. Once again you have resorted to sarcasm instead of responding to the issue. But after reading so many of your posts in the past that is exactly what I expected. You can't make an intelligent response because I'm right and you're wrong. You can't mount a defense because you have no defense. I did notice you didn't try to assert one more time that Zeus is a "custom" built trumpet. At least that was a welcome relief.

Your ability to make money doesn't make you a gentleman, and I feel rather certain that no one would ever accidently mistake you for one. So I wish you a happy life-both you and all your dealers, who testify so reliably of how nice a guy you really are-true blue-honest. And I bid you all a fond farewell. Except for Dr. Fox's slap at Eclipse, I wouldn't have bothered to post on this forum any way. I feel kind of dirty for having been in here in the first place.

__________________
S.T.

What do we have that we did not receive, and if we received it, why do we glory, as if we received it not?

FreshBrewed

[quote="Reverend"]Interesting posts all!

I have not had the opportunity to try out a Wild Thing, or an Eclipse. I certainly hope to one day!





Well today is your lucky day Reverend. It just so happens that I will be in Houston the 1-14 of March and I never leave home without my Eclipse. I will have a few days when the wife is out shopping and I'll be sitting on my parent's couch. What do ya say? Still want a test drive? By the way, I'll have a MHY in Savannah and a MR that I'm watching for a friend since he's in the desert.

Maybe you and ST would like to get together while I'm there.




P.S. I am not an Eclipse salesman and this will not turn into an Eclipse trumpet fest like ended up happening in my basement! Unless of course we have a B-B-Q and Leigh decides to show up.

__________________
Mike
Eclipse MHY Bell
1949 Olds Ambassador

Listening has nothing to do with moving your mouth!

Still Trying

Mike,

I might have my horn by then, so we'll have two medium reds to test drive. Leigh started on it yesterday. The Reverend lives in Katy, so he and I both will have about the same distance to drive to get to your place. It sounds like fun to me. Of course if Leigh wants to drop by, we can entertain him in Texas as well as you fellows did in Bamberg.

Give the boys in the desert my regards.

Jesse

__________________
S.T.

What do we have that we did not receive, and if we received it, why do we glory, as if we received it not?

FreshBrewed

I know Katy pretty well. Lived there for a few years. My parents live in the middle of nowhere so I can drive and get one of you and we can go the others house if you want. It might be easier that way. Especially since I've never been to my parents new place and will be hard pressed to try and explain directions to a place I've never driven to. Just let me know.

__________________
Mike
Eclipse MHY Bell
1949 Olds Ambassador

Listening has nothing to do with moving your mouth!

Still Trying

Mike,

Michael Guevara has all the Zeus horns at his place. I don't want you to do all the driving. If it's alright with the Rev, I'll just plan to meet you some place on the way, and then we can drive over there together.

Because he already has some of the parts, Leigh said my horn might be ready in three weeks. That would put its completion date some time during your visit home. When I find out more about it, I'll discuss an exact date with you. It'll probably be a PM.

Jesse

__________________
S.T.

What do we have that we did not receive, and if we received it, why do we glory, as if we received it not?

Thevor

For example, in a standard line, everyone could possibly handle the soldering of the braces but I can promise you that Zig has only "his best" handle the Signature line braces. (this is just common sense) Its simple, there are degrees of quality and expertise. Zig won't use his highest paid employees on a resale line, unless the buyer is paying for the additional attention.

This is a clear example of how easily written communication can faulter and this is clearly my fault. What I was trying to say was during production runs, the resale lines could get any level of person on the horn, from the expert to the apprentice. Clearly Kanstuls standards are very high, therefore even with lesser skilled people in the line there is going to be a marked difference in quality than seen coming from a high output production line. On the other hand, with the Signature line or with resellers that may be paying for it (I'm not suggesting this is done with the WT line - that could only be confirmed by Flip) the finishing work and detailing that demands a high degree of expertise would only be done by Zig's finest. I would almost guarantee that no one other than his best touches the the soldering of the braces and the fine tuning done to the horn on his Signature line..... no apprentices allowed. High quality finish work on anything can double the cost in a very short amount of time and takes many hours and years of practice to refine into an art.

Even on my son's pro quality Bach knockoff, there are minor details that could have been done better or a bit more attention to detail done on the horn. Who knows who was handeling the horn that day it came off the line? But, all in all, it plays well and is still a very fine horn.

In the end, it's still about music.

__________________
53' Olds Ambassador

Cornet

Jesse,

Congratulations on winning the contest, however I think it's a bit rich for someone who is being given a new Eclipse trumpet to be criticising anyone's payment plan to the extent you are! Have a look at your own "signature" line at the bottom of your posts:

"What do we have that we did not receive..." - indeed!!

Maybe you should give the buyers of musical instruments some credit for being able to decide whether they can afford the purchase in the first place. If they can and it helps to be able to pay it off interest free, I'm sure they appreciate it. Not everyone can win a new trumpet for their kids.

I sold a new ZeuS trumpet to a student this week after he tried a demo horn I sent him - he is very excited about getting a trumpet that plays so well for a fraction of the price of a new Bach or anything else similar here. Bach trumpets are not just 50% more expensive than the ZeuS over here - it is more like 100% minimum. This is because the limited number of dealers think they've got a captive market and price their products accordingly. Sure people can get on the internet and buy these instruments from the USA etc, however not everyone feels comfortable doing it and I can understand why. I was able to sell him a brand new ZeuS trumpet for hardly anything more than some dealers are selling Yamaha 2... series student trumpets. If you want something to criticise, then get onto the Yamaha dealers in this part of the world!

The "customer base you appeal to with your cheap trumpets" line is hardly fair either - are you implying inferior quality? Are you categorising anyone who owns a ZeuS into a lower socio-economic group? Or do you resent the fact that people can buy high quality instruments for a reasonable price?

If you felt so "dirty" posting in the ZeuS forum (what a stupid remark to make in the first place...!), then why did you make 2 more posts after bidding farewell??

I notice "everyone's best friend" Liad gave up his anti-ZeuS crusade after constantly shooting himself in the foot with stupid comments and lies. Funny how he disappeared right around the time he didn't win the Eclipse contest - however I digress...Please don't become like him. If you don't like ZeuS, or you hate Alex, or whatever reasons you have - just ignore the ZeuS forum. However, be aware that they are not going away just because you and a few others don't like them!

Enjoy your new Eclipse trumpet - I haven't played one and it's doubtful I will get the chance any time soon. A dealer here looked at importing them but decided not to go ahead because of the price they would be selling for and the limited number of sales he would likely make in a considerably smaller market than the US. The Wild Thing dealer here stopped importing them for the same reason - they only sold a couple and it wasn't worth it. I'm not knocking the other makes (I actually owned a Wild Thing cornet) however in this particular market the ZeuS is exceptional value and unless I start to sell 100 of them a month, I suppose the other makes will continue to sell for much more than they're actually worth!

__________________
Where words fail, music speaks
- Hans Christian Anderson

trickg

Cornet,

Ineresting post. I had no idea that "down under" Bach trumpets were going for so much. Here in the States it can hardly be said that the ZueS is selling for a fraction of the cost of a new Bach. Last time I checked, I would be able to get a spanking new Bach for somewhere in the neighborhood of $1400 - $1500. I know that the ZueS is selling for less, but with Bach, there is a certain reputation and name recognition that you are buying when you lay out the cash for one.

A tagline that I keep hearing about the ZeuS is "a better Bach". I'm not convinced that is the case, although I have favorably reviewed the ZeuS Gs that I have played. I would really like to get my hands on a ZeuS Olympus and stand it next to some other horns. I'm intrigued by the .470 bore size. I'm not convinced that bigger is better when it comes to bore size, and sometimes I think that it's used as a gimmick to try to entice sales. After all, the Schilke B6 is smaller even than a ML Bach's .459 and I have yet to hear anyone say that they have played a B6 that was either stuffy or bad. But then again, the Schilke B6 does not have the same specifications as the ZueS G or the Olympus, so we really can't compare them, can we?

Best wishes to you and your business in the Land Down Under!

__________________
Patrick Gleason
email me at: trickg1@hotmail.com

"What we do in life echoes in eternity"
"At my signal, unleash hell."
- Maximus Decimus Meridius

Reverend

Trickg,

Around here (Houston, TX), the new Bachs sell for approximately $1700...on sale!!! And depending on the model, they just go up from there!! That's just too painful, and one of the primary reasons I started promoting the ZeuS instruments. They really are great instruments at great prices!

The Olympus does have a different "blow" than the Guarnerius, as it should! Feels much closer to my Callet Jazz. But I really like the unique "sound" that I am getting with the Olympus...must be that brushed copper bell!

If you get the chance, definitely try out the Olympus - I think that you will be quite impressed.

Blessings,

__________________
Michael Guevara, DMM
Cinco Ranch Conservatory of Music
www.cincoranchmusic.com
Golden Trumpet Ministries
Authorized Stage 1 and Fides Dealer, Texas and Southern US