Brekelefuw

Its cold enough here in Toronto. Just send me your horn and I will leave it outside for a night of natural freezing.

Dan Millheim

Update: The Cryo Company will be freezing the horns next week! One "glitch" is that he is moving the company the end of next month and is a bit nervous with me taking pictures of the "process" with all the mess. Either way I will be sure and write a full report for anyone interested. I really like this guy and hope that this experiment will result in others sending their horns to be treated.

This is where all you skeptics respond... ha. Hey, I am doing it for the experience, adventure and for the entertainment of TM'ers everywhere. The fact that it will be free doesn't hurt either.

__________________
Eclipse Custom XLR (Beyond beautiful 24k scratch) gold (05 Eclipse Contest Horn)
Getzen Genesis (Beautiful 24k scratch gold)
Wiseman Double Case (10% discount code: T624)
Monette/Harrelson B1-1 prana custom one off.
Horns/MPC Cryo'ed at Cryo-parts.com

Dan Millheim

Well, as promised, for those following this thread, the "twins" have been delivered and will be frozen tomorrow. I was feeling a bit anxious over this grand experiment until I got the following e-mail from the owner of the cryo company later tonight...

"Your trumpets made it safe and sound to the cryo chamber. I lovingly placed them into the cryo chamber surrounded by a soft cushion of bubble wrap and foam, to ensure that they have a nice rest tonight before the freeze tomorrow."

Ha, that made me smile. Oh well, life's greatest rewards come by taking risks. Stay tuned.

__________________
Eclipse Custom XLR (Beyond beautiful 24k scratch) gold (05 Eclipse Contest Horn)
Getzen Genesis (Beautiful 24k scratch gold)
Wiseman Double Case (10% discount code: T624)
Monette/Harrelson B1-1 prana custom one off.
Horns/MPC Cryo'ed at Cryo-parts.com

tx trpt

Dan, are you freezing the gold Eclipse and the gold Getzen, or are you using two other trumpets? Also, you mentioned that the company is moving... will they still be located in the Fort Worth area?

Dan Millheim

Hello Tx Trumpet!

Yes, the Eclipse and Getzen as well as two custom mouthpieces. I refer to them as the "twins."

The company is called Cryo-Parts ( cryo-parts.com) The owner is Lee Weiland. Here is a very interesting article:

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Iss..._interview.htm

He is moving the company to Tucson Arizona in a few weeks and wil be taking orders once he is set up. I'll keep you posted.

__________________
Eclipse Custom XLR (Beyond beautiful 24k scratch) gold (05 Eclipse Contest Horn)
Getzen Genesis (Beautiful 24k scratch gold)
Wiseman Double Case (10% discount code: T624)
Monette/Harrelson B1-1 prana custom one off.
Horns/MPC Cryo'ed at Cryo-parts.com

Tootsall

Now that's an interesting place to locate a company that specializes in freezing things!

Dan Millheim

Hey Toots,

Well, he was consider moving to the "Fortress Of Solitude" but apart from the obvious benifits of being able to use less liquid nitrogen in his business, the lack of community activities and the difficulty in growing a back yard garden there led him to consider Arizon instead, ha.

Truth: He has aging parents he wants to be closer to be able to care for. Lee, is one of the good guys! I hope this all works out and those who are interested can support his efforts by sending their horns to him!

By now the "twins" should be feeling pretty chilly.

__________________
Eclipse Custom XLR (Beyond beautiful 24k scratch) gold (05 Eclipse Contest Horn)
Getzen Genesis (Beautiful 24k scratch gold)
Wiseman Double Case (10% discount code: T624)
Monette/Harrelson B1-1 prana custom one off.
Horns/MPC Cryo'ed at Cryo-parts.com

Mzony

There's a couple of points that none of the studies seem to address in a sufficient manner.
To begin with, in order to freeze the horn, it needs to be cleaned really well. Even the smallest bit of gunk can dry and crack the tubing. Having a totally clean horn plays differently than a horn with excess solder blobs, or with hot dog bits and pieces in side the tubing.
Also, the valve felts, and all corks need to be replaced. The thing is that as minor as these things sound, they do change the way the horn plays.
It is almost impossible to REALLY have a scientific experiment. However, if the horn was brand new, with a valve alignment made with synthetic felts (sorry, I can't come up with the proper word), and even synthetic cork...Well maybe then I would be less skeptical.
However, there are people that I really respect who provide cyrogenic treatments, so I'm willing to concede that they know better than I.

Mike

__________________
Zony

Brett Getzen

This has been a topic of discussion around here for years. Some swear that cryogenics works while others think it is just voodoo. A lot like the thread. I am on the fence. I can see how it would have some effect on the horns, but how much is the question. Is it enough of a difference that the human ear can actually distinguish it? I will be interested to hear the results.

One thing with the play testing that you have to keep in mind is the individual prejudices of the players involved. Those that are in favor of the system will swear there is a difference. Those opposed in the begining will swear there is no change. It would have to be done blindly. This is something we have learned through Edwards.

When Christan is setting up a horn for a player he will just put something together and hand it to them. That way the player has no idea what he is holding. The reason for this is to take each player's prejudices out of the equation. If someone says they don't like gold brass bells, no matter how many different bells you give them they will always say it's bad. However, if they don't know what it is and just play they will just listen and feel it rather than judge its make up. Doing this is very revealing about preconceived notions. While it doesn't always work out that they pick what they swore against, it does happen. Another interesting test is to give someone a horn and if they don't like it you say you are doing something to it when you aren't and hand it back to them.. Some guys will swear it's different somehow. The mind is much more important in the whole equation than anything between the mouthpiece and the bell flare.

If you were really going to do this, the horns would all have to look identical in every way. Only the person running the test should be able to tell the difference. And I don't think you should even tell the play testers what they are testing for. Just give them the horns to play, treat half of them, and give them back. Don't tell them what was done to which horns and see what happens.

Brett Getzen

Brett Getzen

Oh, and a quick explanation of heat treating.

There are different kinds of heat treating methods, purposes, and equipment. Some bells are heated in a large annealing oven that heats the entire bell. Sometimes, a torch is used to spot anneal certain areas of the bell like just the tail or just the flare. There are also different methods. You might anneal the entire bell blank in the oven, then give it the final hand spinning, and then just spot anneal the flare. This achieves varying degress of hard and soft surfaces.

Of course, those are techniques used to achieve a certain sound to the horn. There are also annealing techniques used to soften the brass back to its more natural state in order to eliminate work hardening caused by things like spinning, hammering, etc... This is usually done with a hand torch so that only the hardened areas are heated. This annealing is also done on other parts of the horn as they are worked. Tubing is annealed to facilitate drawing and bending.

If you want to see an example of the torch used, check out the video here Getzen : Videos : Brazing. While the video shows the hand brazing of a valve section, that is the same kind of torch used to spot anneal parts.

Brett Getzen