Larry Gianni

Noel and the others,

Thank you so much for posting here and helping us all try to understand what really makes a trumpet tick plus trying to have many more good days playing that bad with the understanding of how the “ physics of the beast “ can be used to our advantage.

Now a new thought on the subject
A little Los Angeles trumpet sound history lesson ( seen thru my eyes and ears )

I really don't know about other parts of the US and globe, but in the late 70 and all thru the 80's here in Los Angeles, there was a penchant to go to bigger and bigger equipment i.e.: bore size and leadpipe size, rim, cup throat etc, I perceive this trend due in part to the demands of a lot of live playing situation ( here and Las Vegas ) without sophisticated amplify techniques both big band, show work, large ensemble recording ( Star Trek – the motion picture had a 12 member trumpet section ) and the almost now extinct rockand roll horn section both with loud rock emsembles and mowtown and R and B greats, plus major trumpet stars icons like Maynard and his 70’s band lead by lead trumpet Stan Mark who at that time played a Benge 6x ,Eldon Benge's largest offering at the time ( Stand finally ended up on a Benge 7x- .470 bore ), Lyn Nickilson with his ST 306, and locals like Paul Cacia, George Graham, John Audino, Bob O'Donnell and Mike Paulsen ( both CG students ) , Jon Howell, Dalton Smith, Wes Hensel a young Wayne Bergeron, who went from a 43/72 Bach to a Schilke x3 before his Kanstul model was developed, plus a major west coast legendary teacher and trumpet influence of Mr. Claude Gordon, and his development of the CG Benge again .468 bore . Also not to forget the teachings of John Clyman , (Besson Meha, .470 ) and legendary sounds of Uan Rasey, Frank Beach and Pete Candoli on their LB Kings all playing and teaching that sound , a big, broad, dense , “ fill the room “ , “let it sing” trumpet sound. It was taught to be your most important goal as you matured as a player. Also I’d like to mention the horn section icons of Mic Gillette and Bill Lamb ( Quincy Jones lead trumpet at the time) with their #3 large bore Martins and Rich Cooper and Mark Underwood and Steve madio both large bore trumpet users and all having that that big. ballsy, brassy intense, large , “heavy sizzle” sound that that cpould be heard even over the loudest guitars. Even in the legitimate circles large bore equipment was emphisezed as an achievement standard , hearing the beautifull trumpet sounds being produced in most of the major organizations and as we all tried to emulate the great Bud Herseth and his approach to sound.

At the time, all the younger and intermediate players were under the impression and also sometimes delibertly taught that as you grew in your playing and as a player and got a better approach to the physicalness of the instrument, you needed room to grow (i.e.: bigger bore, larger leadpipe,bigger rim diameter, cup, especially enlarging mouthpiece throat) in your choice and use of equipment to get a " SOUND" to be proud of. Again what I see now is a very cyclical cycle to trumpet sound thru different decades ( remember the " pea shooter " sounds of the trumpets that came from the finest players of the famous Big band era probably up to the time of Stan Kenton with Frank Beach as his first lead trumpet ) The only player that was really bucking the trend to bigger and bigger equipment was Jon Faddis, who amazed us all with his extraordinarily upper register, but I don't think any teacher ever wanted there students to try to emulate his sound.

Now fast forward to the mid,late 90's were , with different playing situation, better recording and micking techniques, better equipment and mouthpiece choices and a different concept to a trumpet sound maybe, tighter ( I saw that in the good sense ) ML and even Med bore trumpets are now played and played with big sounds - Roger Ingram jumps to mind - rarely do I see mouthpiece throats drilled to 24 and even 22 like I saw in the players of a decade ago, more and more, efficiency is taught and using your brain instead of your back to play the ever more demanding trumpet parts handed us.

What my simple question really is - Is a good or even great trumpet
Sound ( remember good and great are subjective terms ) a cyclical thing
based on external conditions and playing conditions to all of us ?

I'd like to apologize to the many players and teachers I've left out of this blurb ( anytime you list great players , you always leave a " real great one" out ) and again I am just talking about the US / Los Angeles area which I’m most familiar with ( I know for a fact that in San Francisco , large bore equipment and mouthpieces are , used by commercial and legit players alike , is still the norm ) Why?

1) Not really any recording going on in the SF Bay area and that live playing is still the musical mainstay? –
2) More traditional musical climate with more traditional teachings and teachers ?
3) Not many young players moving or staying to play professionally in that area ?
4) Has the proliferation of sampled and synthesized music given us a mis-conception or different conception of a modern commercial or legit trumpet sound with -what I call _ " too much gain in the mix” trumpet / brass sound?
5) Are the higher and harder demands placed upon trumpet players making us sacrifice a larger , broader sound for increased range and endurance?
6) Are we all smarter now about using equipment - (is eauipment getting so much better) - so we use our brains more than our backs when we play and purchase gear?

Well , enough of my ramblings – I really don’t know a definite answer to this question let me know about where you play and live and has the trumpet sound produced differed than the past and has the equipment used changed.

Larry

Note to Noel - there is no one on this site ( or any other ) that can steal your thunder. Most of us are on the edge of our seats waiting for the next
“LONELYANGEL” post to appear, Without even asking , I know the rest the TMer’s can all agree to that.

Some 2000 decade players and equipment

Roger Ingram – Schilke S42 / Marc. Mouthpiece 28 or 27 throat
Scott Englebright – ML or M Bach 37 / Marc. Mouthpiece
Jim Manely – Reeves lt weight V-Raptor / Reeves mouthpiece 30 throat
Jon Faddis – Schilke S42l / Laskey mouthpiece / 26 throat
Dave Trigg – Calicchio “ DT “ model – med. Bore #3 pipe / Marc. piece 28 throat
Lew Soloff – NY Bach small bore – Commercial piece / Schilke 14a4a custom 27 throat
Pete Olstad – Schilke B6 ( he also plays and Olds trumpet ) , Monette mouthpiece ( smallest rims diameter Dave offer stock ) 27 throat
Charlie Davis – Bach 37 stering silver bell – bach mouthpiece
Gary Grant – Bach 37 – Reeves mouthpiece
Jerry Hey – Bach 37 – Reeves mouthpiece
Malcom McNabb – NY bach 38 med. Bore / custom mouthpiece
Bobby Shew – med bore 6310Z Yamaha / Yamaha BS mouthpiece 28 throat

Note about Bobby Shew – in the late 70’s and 80’s Bobby played his personnel model Yamaha, but got the one of the biggest sounds in Los Angeles, but Bobby is a player that was always ahead of his time.

OK – let me know

Please , posting just to tell me I’m totally wrong is not what I’m after – Me being wrong about something is no earth shattering news , but letting me know will not make me any smarter or give the rest of us any “food for thought” – lets keep the post in a positive vein even if you disagree, just tell the rest of us your reasoning

Larry

PS – I may start a new topic with this if this part of the thread really gets going

Ready, set, go

dcstep

Yes, that's the same Dr. Moore that wrote the Impedance article in the ITG Journal a year or two ago.

I'd be interested in seeing the differences in bell-nodes for different horns, like a Bach-37 vs. a Stomvi Mambo, etc., etc.

Also, it'd be interesting to see the difference in nodes between a horn straight from the factory vs. one tweaked by a Laskey/Malone/Reeves/Tanabe. Dare I mention, cryogenics?

Dave

__________________
Schilke '60 B1
Selmer Paris -- '57 #20 K-Modified/
'03 Concept TT w/ GR66.8B2.8
'94 Lawler TL cornet w/ Sparx 2B
Conn Vintage One flugel - GR66FD
www.pitpops.com www.ucm-inc.com
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

Tootsall

Excellent last point, Dave. a "before and after" set of shots to see if the energy levels increase, decrease, or if any change is even detectable!

MPM

Larry ,,, GREAT POST / THREAD!!!!

This is the most thought provoking and interesting thread I've seen on this web site in quite sometime.

"Free Blowing" ... all the "variables" are going to make it different for everyone, but I'd think that as we as players become more efficient, OLDER (hahaha) we realize ... let the equipment for for you. Don't work against the equipment. Bob & KO were and are correct (am refering to your post where they were talking you out of drilling out the mpc.)

And yes ... the ideas "just relax" & / or "back-off" are very difficult to grasp at first, but as we know ... it works! Once the little 6.5 watt light bulb :idea: comes on over our heads we wonder, "how could I have been so blind to it?"

Great thread!

__________________
"~iii<O"
Michael Manthey
Scodwell USA Trumpets
Bob Reeves Mpc's
www.ultrapureoils.com
Maynard Ferguson BBN Band

Larry Gianni

MPM

Thanks for the " pat on the back "

You probably realize by now I like to make us all think a little harder ( me included ) about how to approach " the beast "

Like us all - I'm trying to play with " more brain " and " less brawn " but still achieve even better results.


As all of us know, trumpet is a mental game as well as mastering the physical aspects of it.

Like lifting weights, no matter what age or experience, the more you work out the heavier load you can handle, but the secret is to find what your brain can do to help you lift past your expectations and then stay there with ease , more fun and less exersion.

More Brain, less Back

Larry

MPM

Larry,

Yea ... "brain not braun" ... good one!

Yes "trumpet is a jealous mistress". There is the "paralysis by over analysis" thing ... but ... with logical thinking ( a not so common factor in trumpet mania ) it can get easier.

In your first post, your question was " ... what it feels like to you if a trumpet is 'free blowing " ...

Well I have to say my perception has changed over the yeras as I've gotten older & tried to make playing easy as possible. In the past "my" freest blowing mpc / trumpet combination was a Hoton ST 304 MF Horn (the "little big horn") and my old Giardinelli 3M #24 bore hole #1 bb.

That combo was "ttooo" free ... to the point of needing to be Arnold S. with an air compressor hooked up yo my _aa! Dig? There was **NO** resistance. I've come to realize that, for me now, a free blowing combination is one that will alow me to play witha big, full sound with no more air volume than it takes to talk. You know what I mean :wink:

The highest compression mpc I can play on is a "gift"! And with my mpc / trumpet combination there is no change in the feel between registers. Even all the way through.

MPM

__________________
"~iii<O"
Michael Manthey
Scodwell USA Trumpets
Bob Reeves Mpc's
www.ultrapureoils.com
Maynard Ferguson BBN Band

Rob Jokinen

Free blowing means to me when my internal resistance matches the resistance of the horn. Making sure to have a free sound so I know nothing internally is constricted.

Guess what? my warm up every day is to get to the point of 'free blowing'. First my air needs to get moving, then get the lips pliable. Then at that point, it is fine tuning my blow over my range so I'm in balance. I can usually say that the 1st 5 minutes, my horn feels very resistive because I am overblowing. It's a hard habit to break. Then by the end of the warmup, everything feels free blowing.

When I look for opinions of free blowing on equipment, it means opinions of the blow for that horn. What does the blow feel like, without changing anything else internally?

I think the reason last week I felt my large bore Calicchio is more resistive than my Conn ML is that I was comfortable with the Conn's resistance (less efficient) that I was overblowing the Calicchio's efficiency.
I was over-shooting notes last week still.

Now the Calicchio feels very free blowing (after my warmup) and I get used to it. That will improve over time with less warm up required to feel free blowing.

later.
Rob

dcstep

Buzzing the leadpipe helps to get acclimated to an individual horn. I find that just a minute or two on the leadpipe gets me resonating the horn very quickly.

I don't agree with the premise that all horns are "free blowing". On absolute terms, so can take less air than others; hence, IMHO they're not as free blowing as those that'll take more air. That doesn't mean that they're not efficient. The Yamaha Z is an example of a very efficient, very flexible horn, that MOST people overblow and find "stuffy". Played correctly, with just the right air and much precision, it's a fantastically responsive horn. Still, in absolute terms, I'd say it's not free blowing, in that it generally requires a downward adjustment of perceived air volume.

Dave

__________________
Schilke '60 B1
Selmer Paris -- '57 #20 K-Modified/
'03 Concept TT w/ GR66.8B2.8
'94 Lawler TL cornet w/ Sparx 2B
Conn Vintage One flugel - GR66FD
www.pitpops.com www.ucm-inc.com
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

W Scott

So, then is putting too much air into a horn one of the problems of excessive resistance? I've tried a Xeno and hated the thing---one of the hardest blowing horns for me. But, I've got big lungs and can pour a lot of air into a horn---so, is the air getting trapped in there and the back pressure is what I feel?

How can a horn be designed to 'take more air'? Bore size? Bell size? What?


Bill

__________________
Gabriel is NOT a woodwind player!

Larry Gianni

Bill,

Here's a simple answer, actually opinion, as to the resistance variable and bigger equipment.

The balance of the following items, different resistance in the equipment factors, from rim diameter to the bell final diameter, holds the key to building an efficient set-up. Here’s another thing I’ve learned ( usually the hard way ) the term " back-pressure “ is also a counter-intuitive, slightly over used, trumpet term , because you really displace air that is already in the instrument when playing and the amount of air required to play long passages, is usually no where near the amount of the intake you’ve made. (Probably an other topic for the future).Try this, if you take your trumpet, with the mouthpiece in the receiver, and just blow into it, with your lips encircling the rim. (Like drinking from a glass beer bottle) and you blow into the trumpet with a total lung volume of air. – So after that, and that light headed feeling subsides, do you feel, what has been termed back-pressure. I never do (the highest resistance point would be the smallest diameter opening in the equation which would be the throat of the mouthpiece). So, what’s left in the resistance equation/ variables? , just you. (Generic “you “, this next part applies to everyone, not just Bill ) Your aperture, your tongue height, your jaw/teeth overlap, teeth evenness or chipping, are you and upstream or pivot player, A very natural (actually “well learned”) breath/air intake and release, total muscle coordination, etc.

Ok, after that, no lets talk equipment

Do some trumpets play tight or stuffy - yes

Are some trumpets built with a high resistant equation - yes?

Can you juggle the numbers i.e.: bore, leadpipe,opening, leadpipe dimensions , leadpipe length, bell diameter and alloys along with tuning bell systems, , tuning slide - reg. or reversed or oversized, straight bore or poly-bore design ( by the way, the lightweight V-Raptor is a “ killer” instrument ), plus a host of others - give you a “bigger " blowing feel (not necessarily a freer feeling, , to me it too different experiences) - yet be called and efficient trumpet - yes

Can the cup, throat, backbore, gap offset an un-efficient trumpet play better – only slightly.

Can a player physically overcome a ineffiecent trumpet set -up thur sheer force and will - yes - We used to call that " road chops " –

Going off topic – ROAD CHOPS

Road chops was the concept of: playing 5 or 6 nights and days a week, having to make the " notes " every performance whether you were having a good night or bad night, getting past sub-par equipment or mouthpieces or poor acoustic situations and still making it happen, not being able to give excuses for a lack luster performances or sending a sub because your chops were stiff, not being able to rest or lay-out anytime you wanted, etc. that was termed “ road chops” for what it did to the physical end of the playing equation.

There was a time, many moons ago, that great players performed without the use of heavy bottom caps, valve alignments or cryogenics, reversed leadpipes and amato water keys, tunable bells and 10 thicknesses or alloys to choose from , no internet to choose a vast assortment of mouthpieces or equipment or discussing trumpet issues, talk of gap, screw rims or backbore, digital tuners, digital; metronomes, bell mikes and the vast technology of mikeing and mixing a band properly, etc they played the “ hell “ out of the trumpet both commercially and classically and thought that it was up to them to make it happen not the equipment. Do I long for those days again from an equipment point of view, no, not really?

What these days did have , which was invaluable to playing to your full potential eventually , was a proliferation of playing opportunities both for the pro's and amateurs alike ,in all types of places, in all types of styles musically. Not only a vast array of travellng professional band, but very good rehearsal bands and community orchestras that practiced often and performed regularly, great cover bands and pop bands that used the so called “ Band Instruments “ in their band and in their music, an abundance of excellent performer/teachers teaching with a solid foundation and a mentoring attitude toward the student - I could go on and on, but that's probably left for another topic. Sorry


Anyway - I hope I gave you a brief smidgen of an answer that some others may augment with more concrete terms and ideas adding or disagreeing about efficiency of an instrument. Again, IMHO, what I would describe as “bigger " blowing can be achieved, but yet still be and efficient set-up

Lg