W Scott

Larry,
I have to disagree somewhat with what you are saying. If the backbore of the mouthpiece is the crux of the problem---then how in the world do I play so much better with a tight backbore? (I play best with a Schilke 15a4a)


When I say 'backpressure' what I mean is this-----if you take a narrow plastic bag (not a balloon, which stretches too much) and blow into it and keep blowing---what happens? The bag fills up and if you've kept the air from escaping, back pressure begins to build up. In the medical field, we have devices we can have you breath through that do this and it creates what is called 'PEEP'---for positive, end expiratory pressure. This is what I seem to be feeling on some of these horns. It doesn't make any difference what size aperature you use to blow into the bag---the only difference aperature size makes is how fast you will blow up the bag.

Where does the air go that you blow into the horn? Larry mentions that it doesn't take as much air to play a long passage as you blow into the horn. You can figure that out pretty quick by blowing a full, hard breath into your horn with your hand over the bell----you don't feel much air coming out, do you? So, where did it go? Absorbed by the horn to make it vibrate?

As for road chops---Larry is onto something here, I think. My daughters trumpet teacher is a great guy named Wayne Theirault. Wayne is a mostly retired pro with a huge library of recorded trumpet music. We got to talking one night about the giants of the past and Wayne was saying that we don't have giants like we did in the past. The only reason we could come up with had to do with what Larry was talking about with road chops---the giants of the past made do with what we would call inferior equipment. They forced the horn to do what they needed it to do----so is the problem today that we run into problems and instead of working harder to find a solution, instead we pick up a 'better' horn? Something to think about! :?

__________________
Gabriel is NOT a woodwind player!

nowherenearadouble

Larry,
You said "Do some trumpets play tight or stuffy?"
Do you think there is a difference between a tight horn and a stuffy one?
Alan

Larry Gianni

Bill,

Maybe you miss understood my meaning in the last post. I don’t think I said that a tight backbore is ever a problem, infact if a “tighter than normal “backbore is what you need to make an efficient, balanced set-up work, then a “tighter than normal” or “narrow” backbore (I try to stay away from terms that can be subjective – “tight “means alot of different thing s to alot of different players) backbore is something I would suggest highly that you DO use. Trumpets and mouthpieces are tools to be used to produce a product. Carpenters do have one saw in the truck to build your whole house do they?

Let me further define what “back-pressure “means to me plus the displacement of air

When you play, you displace air that is already naturally in a trumpet (a trumpet is not an air-free vacuumed)... Because it takes a relatively small amount of air to actually play ,say ,a 2 octave C scale and only a certain amount of air will be allowed into trumpet by the smallest mechanical aperture, the throat of the mouthpiece, you will not feel hardly any air come out the bell by your hand. Amount of air past the mouthpiece throat, amount of air that eventually comes out the bell, no m ore no less. Plus you use a lot more air to play lower in the staff than is needed to play up high, because your embouchure aperture is more open in the lower register and quite taught and smaller in the upper register. That’s the air part. If you play with a balloon over the bell, then eventually you will feel a real “back-pressure created by the elasticity of the balloon and closer to the balloon bursting will be the greatest amount of back-pressure. There is no apparatus in a trumpet that will send air backwards.

It would be even clearer with water in the trumpet and the amount of water you pump into the mouthpiece would be the exact same amount that would eventually trickle out the bell.

Quick example: Playing Sensation with “back-pressure” feeling explanation

If I take a Med. bore NY Bach and play a C scale at a PPP volume and easily counter the high resistance of the trumpet built in resistance physically, hardly any “back – pressure” ( again I think the term is a misnomer ) will be felt by the player – Now, if I take the same trumpet and try to blow the walls down at a FFF volume level then I will feel the built-in resistance of the this particular trumpet and because most likely I will not be able to balance or counter this for too long with my body and facial muscles , the narrow tapers, .453 bore and small bell flair and only then I will feel what you may be describing as " back -pressure " . Another scenario is that , when playing this loud as I enter the higher register , My aperture is blown open, my throat closes up to try to counter this and you feel this sensation and blame the “ back-pressure “ on the equipment . Both are caused by the player and not really the equipment.’ The trumpet remains the constant and the player the variable in this little experiment. If you drilled out the throat of the mouthpiece to a 22, let say and changed the equipment resistance variable, then the player also changes what he will do and feel.

Maybe that is clearer to you. Maybe not. I should ask Dave Bacon if he’ll put his 2 cents in on this. He really knows his stuff well and is a much better communicator using the keyboard that I am.

Stuffy vs. tight label ( thighter than normal label )

Also, in my mind, there is quite a difference between a stuffy and a tight trumpet. A ‘tighter than normal” trumpet is built with a high resistance / high efficient ratio to it. Both the Yamaha 6310Z’s and Conn Directors are” tighter than normal “ trumpets (like of lot of student line instruments). Student trumpets are built “tight “(I didn’t say well) because a beginner will need a tighter set-up to help him/her achieve playing success when he or she is still learning the how to breath... A stuffy trumpet is usually a trumpet that is actually to big for the players internal resistance factor and the main point of resistance is farther down the leadpipe so a
Back-up “ feeling occurs. Another reason a trumpet is considered stuffy is that a player uses a certain brand or model that was engineered and built for a certain type playing and playing situation and the player is trying to use it for another type of playing situation i.e.: Large Bore Mt Vernon Bach ( or Monette ) used by a lead player on Maynard band. That would feel stuffy after a while, because physically you wouldn’t be able to overcome what this trumpet( s ) was originally engineered to be.

Maybe all this helps a little more (maybe not)

Larry

PS_ let just say about the pre-internet days - it was alot harder to get on a "mouthpiece safari " or a "trumpet safari " before your were exposed so easily to being " a kid in a trumpet gear candy shop "

MPM

Hmmm ... reading all this has made my brain get a little tired, however I really enjoy reading what Larry has to say.

I'm not sure that thinking about the diplacment of air in the horn is all that important. I do know that it takes vertually no air to make any particular note speek on a trumpet. Pop your hand on your mpc ... pedal C. And how much air did it take to produce that note?

Also ... I just got in from a gig. I have recently gone to a Reeves custom mpc ... ES cup, #30 bore hole (small!) 692s bb, #5 shank. For me this combination of variables makes the "mpc" the point of compression. "I" / my body doesn't have to make the compression as much now. I didn't get tired, notes from a low f# to a D above double C spoke very easily. The more I backed off, let the mpc & horn (custom Scodwell) do their job the easier a time I have.

And, yes resisitant & "tight" feels mean different things to me. I'm not sure about the physics of it, but I've played very large bore horns, or large bb's & felt a lot of resistance that I didn't like. I think it has someting to do with the amount of effort it takes to get the vibrations in the "resonating tube" to happen.

A tight horn to me, means the notes slot very close together, and allows me to "not" have to blow like hell to get the sound I want. Tight does "not" mean resistant ... where the term relates to the playing characteristics of a given trumpet. The more I back off the gas, the more open / efficient then horn / mpc combinatuion becomes.

MPM

__________________
"~iii<O"
Michael Manthey
Scodwell USA Trumpets
Bob Reeves Mpc's
www.ultrapureoils.com
Maynard Ferguson BBN Band

Horn of Praise

A while back I voiced these sentiments on the TH:

The lungs are the FUEL TANK.
The embouchure and mouthpiece are the FUEL INJECTORS/CARBURETOR.
The lead pipe is the INTAKE MANIFOLD.
The valve block (pistons) are the CYLINDERS/ENGINE BLOCK.
The bell assembly is the EXHAUST MANIFOLD.

I know that this is a "gearhead" analysis, but...anyone who has ever modified an internal combustion engine knows that all of the components must be in balance. They must be chosen carefully, or the engine will not run efficiently and reach its full potential.

As trumpeters we probably know far less than engine builders because we don't have books and diagnostic read-outs to guide us. So much of what we do is based on "purchase" trial and error. We let someone else make the inital purchase so we don't make an error.

A particular horn could be "stuffy" to a strong player and "open" to a far weaker one.

All the best.

__________________
PAUL NELSON - Eclipse White Lightning / Getzen Eterna 900 Classic

MPM

W Scott,

I see you refer to PEEP ... the whole back-pressure thing. If you get that feeling when playing particular horns, "that" feeling (of using the the plastic bag) then something is very ... I'd hate to say wrong, but very in-efficient. You're either really fighting a horn that's got some serious problems, or you're grossly using more effort than the set up (mpc / trumpet) requires. Or ... all things being equal, the wrong set up for you.

And ... putting your hand ove the bell of a horn ... no you're not going to feel the air coming out. The horn is an ... amplifier or resonating tube ... for lack of a good term. It's not a fire hose. It takes very little air to make any particular not speek on a trumpet. A little more in the low register than the high register. And yes you'll need to have more air in your body to play a longer passage than a short one. Pop you hand on your mpc !!! vertualy "NO" air is required to make that note speek.

I guess this thread is getting off topic, but that's ok ... it's a great subject to talk about anywhere! It's very a conventional school of thougt to thinking there's lots of air going into a horn to make the notes happen. It's the way most of us are taught the first time we are given that "beast" to play. But, if we start thinking in terms of "efficiency" - "relaxing" - "backing-off" playing can become easier, more enjoyable, the sound gets better, and we put less stress on our bodies. (( of course the medical field will suffer just a bit as there'll be less "$" spent on hernias, strokes, and extreme lower G.I. oriented problems )) hahaha

Great topic ... let's make playing efficient!

__________________
"~iii<O"
Michael Manthey
Scodwell USA Trumpets
Bob Reeves Mpc's
www.ultrapureoils.com
Maynard Ferguson BBN Band

W Scott

Well, MPM, I think you're getting close to an explanation. The horn is a resonance tube---and I think this is where the effort comes in. You're right, it's easy to get a sound (squeek, blat or whatever), but the work is in trying to get the right note to play. Why?

Did you folks see the resonance patterns posted on another thread using a silver belled King trumpet? How much effort does it take to make the bell 'ring' properly? How efficient is the bell at changing the vibrations to form a different note? How efficient is the bell at shedding the previous vibrations?

Think about the great horn makers----Reynolds, Siggy Kanstul and John Duda. Every single one of them is a master at making bells. If the bell is the key that also would explain why, every so often, what should be an ordinary horn winds up with extraordinary sound. I have a little Conn Director cornet that resonates like a dream when most of these horns didn't. And, if it is the bell that makes us work, that would explain why Tony Scodwells approach works so well----match up the resonance of a bell with a leadpipe/tuning slide combo that feeds the air at the right speed and flow for the resonance of that particular bell.

Anyway, that's my theory of what's going on. Something creates a 'back pressure'---and MPM, I disagree that you aren't experiencing it. I'd say that you are experiencing it, but at a level that is comfortable for you. I worked as a Respiratory Therapist for twenty years and did a lot of lung volume tests. What I and other therapists have found is that we could always tell the woodwind/brass players because they average lung volumes twice as great as what was predicted. What all of the wood and brass instruments have in common is resonance. All of these instruments take air, convert it into a wave and make the instrument vibrate. The lungs adapt by becoming more efficient (maybe larger?_) through pushing against this resistance. If you're blowing a horn that is low resistance for you, you won't feel the backpressure. I can be comfortable with a PEEP of 5-10 cwp, but above that, I'm not comfortable. This is where the human variable part comes in by matching up your physiology with a horn.

And yes, we're a bit off topic, but it's interesting to try to figure out what makes the beast work!

__________________
Gabriel is NOT a woodwind player!

MPM

W Scott,

Don't believe I said I was or wasn't experiencing "back-pressure". I don't even like to think of the term. I prefer to keep the thought process as simple as possible. Thinking in terms of how easy I can make this, not what has to happen to over come perceived"resistant" factors.

And believe it or not, you can get a very big full sound (not a "sqeek blat or whatever"") using very little air, like as in no more than it takes to talk, from the bottom to the top of the usable range of the trumpet. More air will be required if there is a very long passage to be played.

I suppose if I really want to "feel" back-pressure, I could blow way more air than I have to to the point of it coming back at me. I don't want to do that anymore.

You are correct about matching a persons physiology with the horn, or more specifically it should be matching a "horn/mpc" combination to your physiology.

__________________
"~iii<O"
Michael Manthey
Scodwell USA Trumpets
Bob Reeves Mpc's
www.ultrapureoils.com
Maynard Ferguson BBN Band

MPM

Other thoughts on the subject.

The horn and or the mpc don't create back pressure ... we do! The equipment is just sitting there. The percieved back pressure happens when the player is expelling more effort than is required. Player experiences a "resistance", continues to push harder, even more resistance ... player has to give up. Too much percieved back pressure. It gets to be a vicious circle.

So ... why not back off. Don't fight it. :idea:

__________________
"~iii<O"
Michael Manthey
Scodwell USA Trumpets
Bob Reeves Mpc's
www.ultrapureoils.com
Maynard Ferguson BBN Band

W Scott

MPM----
I've been thinking about your last question----'why not back off and not fight it?'.......

Well, you're right IF you have a horn that just won't take the air. If you can back off and the resistance goes away, then do it! But, that's not what I experience with many horns. There are some horns that are hard to light up and backing off just makes the sound weak and thin. (I'm thinking of horns like the Yamaha Xeno or the Taylors) With my old Conn Director cornet, I have to put quite a bit of air down the tube to get the horn to come alive. That doesn't mean I get a lot of resistance back and that's what I'm pursuing in this thread.

Why is it that some horns can take a lot of air and yet produce little back pressure (or resistance) while other horns can't seem to take much air and you have to back off on them. One answer is the human variable. But, the other variable has to be the horn and the way it's made. Is it possible to achieve some consistency in the way a horn is built so that you can pick a horn based on the amount of air it takes or how well it resonates? I think you can as the horns coming from Calicchio and Kanstul all play consistently the same..........

__________________
Gabriel is NOT a woodwind player!