Describe " Free Blowing " - Page 4

jamesfrmphilly · 02-18-2004, 03:05 PM

is "free blowing" subjective?
if you take a bunch of players and a bunch of horns would there be a consensus on which horns were which?
is my free blower your too tight?

W Scott · 02-18-2004, 04:31 PM

That's the 64 dollar question, Jim. The answer, I think, is that a free blowing horn is free blowing no matter what. Yes, we can change the mouthpiece setup for greater comfort or better access to the higher register and that might add a tiny bit of resistance. However, if I'm right about the bell and it's ability to vibrate being the key---it should be real easy for anybody to make the horn blow free and easy. A little tweaking of the mouthpiece/tuning slide would be all that's required.

Remember though, that some players like some resistance to push against. Other players with smaller lungs might not want a horn that can suck up every bit of air they give. So, there is still room for some individual preferences in a horn.

Have you ever tried a Calicchio or a Kanstul? And then tried a Besson? There is a big difference in the way a Besson feels as compared to the first two even using the same mouthpiece and the same shape of the tuning slide. Why? I think it's the bell. Jack Kanstul or John Duda could probably confirm this, but I don't think they want to give away company secrets!

MPM · 02-19-2004, 01:26 AM

W Scott,

You have missed the point! It's not "horn" related, it's "player" oriented! Bessons ... I've played old Mehas that were so open with so little built in compression, they were very difficult to play. And played some old Grand Prix's ... pwew ... lots of built in compression! All the horns were fine, the "player" just didn't match up! The bell is simply an amplifier!!!

To me my horn is "very" free blowing. A very good friend of mine finds it too resistant. Same horn, nothing was differnt except for the player.

And there's 'so' much more to a trumpet's "resisitance factor" than the bell. It's only an amplifier! It's all going to be a little different for different players / instrumants. But the principle I was / am try to get across ... "BACK-OFF" "RELAX" "DON'T PUSH SO HARD" ... whether you play cornet in a community band, lead trumpet in Maynard Fergusons band, princilpe tube with the CSO, horn with the NY Philharmonic ... you can get a bigger, fuller 'easier to produce' sound if you ease up!

MPM

dcstep · 02-19-2004, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MPM

You have missed the point! It's not "horn" related, it's "player" oriented! Bessons ... I've played old Mehas that were so open with so little built in compression, they were very difficult to play. And played some old Grand Prix's ... pwew ... lots of built in compression! All the horns were fine, the "player" just didn't match up!

With all due respect, it doesn't seem like he missed the point. We seem to have gotten into the realm of semantics. You say that horns have different built in compression. Most others seem to say that horns with low compression are free blowing.

Yes, the player can adjust to a horn's high or low compression, but the fact remains that horns differ in with regard to compression. Thus, if we allow that "free blowing" and "compression" can be used to describe the same phenominum, some horns are freer blowing than others.
Dave

MPM · 02-19-2004, 11:35 AM

Ok ... well I'm not into debating semantics ... or "the meaning of the word "IS" ". Just trying to get out some ideas out there to help peoples playing get easier, & though of in simple terms. But it doesn't seem to be any easier to do here than the Trumpet Herald. Oh well ...

The statment(s) from W Scotts post, "a free blowing horn is free blowing no matter what" and " ... "it should be real easy for anybody to make the horn blow free and easy. A little tweeking of the mouthpiece/tuning slide would be all that's required". No debating needs to be done there certainly!

Have a nice day.

dcstep · 02-19-2004, 12:22 PM

Well, if you could explain the difference between "little built in compression" and "free blowing" you might further the "debate". No one's trying to stop the discussion that I see.

Dave

MPM · 02-19-2004, 05:48 PM

dcstep,

What is it with these trumpet website forums? Did I say I thought someone was trying to stop the discussion? "Little built in compression" and "free blowing" ... esentially the same thing. Semantics again ... who said there was a differece in the two?

Let's try to think only of the mpc (for discussion sake) for right now.

A "high cpmpression mpc" do you know what that is? Shallow cup, smaller bore hole, tighter back bore. For a lead trumpet player in a big band, this type of thing "in general" ( sure I know guys that play 3C's and do well ) allows the compression to happen at the lips/mpc juncture rather than having to create so much compression in the body, the endurance and ease of the upper register. Also tends to help create a sound more suited to the style.

A free blowing / low compression mpc ... a Bach 1, 24 bore hole ... freer blowing, lower compression ... but will take more body compression to get notes to speek. Sound probably more suited to legit styles of playing.

Where these terms relate to a horn only ... pick a variable? Since there been so much emphisis on the "bell", we can talk that.

And here too ... many variables effect the percieved resistance factor. Bell thickness, annealing or not, proper vs improper bracing, plating.

If the bell doesn't "ring" / give the pizzaz you want, or if you can't hear your self, you work harder to get the sound you hear in your head. You work harder, more compression in the body to the point of building up too 'backpressure' ... then you work harder yet to over come what you might percieve as resistance ... visious circle.

dcstep · 02-19-2004, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MPM

many variables effect the percieved resistance factor. Bell thickness, annealing or not, proper vs improper bracing, plating.

If the bell doesn't "ring" / give the pizzaz you want, or if you can't hear your self, you work harder to get the sound you hear in your head. You work harder, more compression in the body to the point of building up too 'backpressure' ... then you work harder yet to over come what you might percieve as resistance ... visious circle.

I refer to what you describe as "resonance". A horn can be very "free blowing" (lack compression) and lack "resonance" (your pizzaz -- there's a Calicchio model that comes to mind, but I don't recall the model name). OTOH, a horn can be "tight" or "provide a lot of compression" and have great resonance (some "special" Bach 37s come to mind, but they're not all gifted with "resonance").

I agree that some players don't realize what's going on and strain to much to create more resonance, not realizing that many such horns are actually projecting resonance forward quite well, but the player is not receiving much feedback. Being aware of horns that behave this way can save the player much wasted energy. My favorite horns provide a lot of resonance from the players perspective and still project into the room.

Still, I think that relative resonance and resistance (vs. "free blowing") are two different things.

Best regards,

Dave

MPM · 02-19-2004, 06:31 PM

Dave,

Of course they are two different things (resonace & resistance) did someone say they were synonomous???!!! A great trumpet (mine - ha ha ha) for the player is going to allow the right balance of projecting "core" of sound / "resonance", and feed back ( what the player feels & hears ).

Bells: It's been my experience, everthing else being equal, if the bracing isn't right, a potentially GREAT trumpet will be a non-responsive "pig" to try to play. (now that's just one variable we could talk about until Bill Clinton admits to ... "sex with that woman" ... but we don't have that much time)

W Scott · 02-20-2004, 11:41 PM

Yeah, if the bracing isn't right the bell isn't going to do what? RESONATE! You said it was just an amplifier and it's not! The bell resonates and if it can't do that it's going to be a dog. What makes a bell resonate? Air! So, if the bell doesn't resonate well, there's going to a lot of back pressure building up. Yeah, you need to lay off of it, but the horn is still going to sound bad.

My reason for harping on this is that some folks want to say that the real variable is the player. That just isn't so as can be seen from the way that the bells on different horns vibrate, the bracing, tuning slides and all of that.

As for low compression being free blowing, I don't agree with that. My Conn director is shot with leaky valves and a tuning slide that can be blown out of the horn. The horn still has pretty much the same resisitance that it always has. What I have noticed is that it doesn't slot worth a hoot any more and it sounds all 'oooophey' like escaping air. That's why I tend to believe that resistance is found in the bell and the bracing for the bell. If that's true, then loss of compression isn't going to affect the resistance all that much.

As for mouthpieces, I haven't found any difference in resistance using mouthpieces IF I have a horn that resonantes well. For me, the size of the mouthpiece and shape of the rim generally matter more than backbore. If a horn has a tough time reaching into the upper register I'll use a tight backbore, but otherwise I don't 'feel' much of a difference.

Just some late night thoughts..................

Bill

02-18-2004, 03:05 PM	#31 (permalink)
jamesfrmphilly Piano User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: the north philly ghetto Posts: 366	is "free blowing" subjective? if you take a bunch of players and a bunch of horns would there be a consensus on which horns were which? is my free blower your too tight? __________________ 1946 Martin Committee, Bach 5V

02-18-2004, 04:31 PM	#32 (permalink)
W Scott Piano User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Carson City, NV. Posts: 490	That's the 64 dollar question, Jim. The answer, I think, is that a free blowing horn is free blowing no matter what. Yes, we can change the mouthpiece setup for greater comfort or better access to the higher register and that might add a tiny bit of resistance. However, if I'm right about the bell and it's ability to vibrate being the key---it should be real easy for anybody to make the horn blow free and easy. A little tweaking of the mouthpiece/tuning slide would be all that's required. Remember though, that some players like some resistance to push against. Other players with smaller lungs might not want a horn that can suck up every bit of air they give. So, there is still room for some individual preferences in a horn. Have you ever tried a Calicchio or a Kanstul? And then tried a Besson? There is a big difference in the way a Besson feels as compared to the first two even using the same mouthpiece and the same shape of the tuning slide. Why? I think it's the bell. Jack Kanstul or John Duda could probably confirm this, but I don't think they want to give away company secrets! __________________ Gabriel is NOT a woodwind player!

02-19-2004, 01:26 AM	#33 (permalink)
MPM Pianissimo User Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 230	W Scott, You have missed the point! It's not "horn" related, it's "player" oriented! Bessons ... I've played old Mehas that were so open with so little built in compression, they were very difficult to play. And played some old Grand Prix's ... pwew ... lots of built in compression! All the horns were fine, the "player" just didn't match up! The bell is simply an amplifier!!! To me my horn is "very" free blowing. A very good friend of mine finds it too resistant. Same horn, nothing was differnt except for the player. And there's 'so' much more to a trumpet's "resisitance factor" than the bell. It's only an amplifier! It's all going to be a little different for different players / instrumants. But the principle I was / am try to get across ... "BACK-OFF" "RELAX" "DON'T PUSH SO HARD" ... whether you play cornet in a community band, lead trumpet in Maynard Fergusons band, princilpe tube with the CSO, horn with the NY Philharmonic ... you can get a bigger, fuller 'easier to produce' sound if you ease up! MPM __________________ "~iii<O" Michael Manthey Scodwell USA Trumpets Bob Reeves Mpc's www.ultrapureoils.com Maynard Ferguson BBN Band

02-19-2004, 11:35 AM	#35 (permalink)
MPM Pianissimo User Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 230	Ok ... well I'm not into debating semantics ... or "the meaning of the word "IS" ". Just trying to get out some ideas out there to help peoples playing get easier, & though of in simple terms. But it doesn't seem to be any easier to do here than the Trumpet Herald. Oh well ... The statment(s) from W Scotts post, "a free blowing horn is free blowing no matter what" and " ... "it should be real easy for anybody to make the horn blow free and easy. A little tweeking of the mouthpiece/tuning slide would be all that's required". No debating needs to be done there certainly! Have a nice day. __________________ "~iii<O" Michael Manthey Scodwell USA Trumpets Bob Reeves Mpc's www.ultrapureoils.com Maynard Ferguson BBN Band

02-19-2004, 12:22 PM	#36 (permalink)
dcstep Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Denver Posts: 680	Well, if you could explain the difference between "little built in compression" and "free blowing" you might further the "debate". No one's trying to stop the discussion that I see. Dave __________________ Schilke '60 B1 Selmer Paris -- '57 #20 K-Modified/ '03 Concept TT w/ GR66.8B2.8 '94 Lawler TL cornet w/ Sparx 2B Conn Vintage One flugel - GR66FD www.pitpops.com www.ucm-inc.com Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

02-19-2004, 05:48 PM	#37 (permalink)
MPM Pianissimo User Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 230	dcstep, What is it with these trumpet website forums? Did I say I thought someone was trying to stop the discussion? "Little built in compression" and "free blowing" ... esentially the same thing. Semantics again ... who said there was a differece in the two? Let's try to think only of the mpc (for discussion sake) for right now. A "high cpmpression mpc" do you know what that is? Shallow cup, smaller bore hole, tighter back bore. For a lead trumpet player in a big band, this type of thing "in general" ( sure I know guys that play 3C's and do well ) allows the compression to happen at the lips/mpc juncture rather than having to create so much compression in the body, the endurance and ease of the upper register. Also tends to help create a sound more suited to the style. A free blowing / low compression mpc ... a Bach 1, 24 bore hole ... freer blowing, lower compression ... but will take more body compression to get notes to speek. Sound probably more suited to legit styles of playing. Where these terms relate to a horn only ... pick a variable? Since there been so much emphisis on the "bell", we can talk that. And here too ... many variables effect the percieved resistance factor. Bell thickness, annealing or not, proper vs improper bracing, plating. If the bell doesn't "ring" / give the pizzaz you want, or if you can't hear your self, you work harder to get the sound you hear in your head. You work harder, more compression in the body to the point of building up too 'backpressure' ... then you work harder yet to over come what you might percieve as resistance ... visious circle. __________________ "~iii<O" Michael Manthey Scodwell USA Trumpets Bob Reeves Mpc's www.ultrapureoils.com Maynard Ferguson BBN Band

02-19-2004, 06:31 PM	#39 (permalink)
MPM Pianissimo User Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 230	Dave, Of course they are two different things (resonace & resistance) did someone say they were synonomous???!!! A great trumpet (mine - ha ha ha) for the player is going to allow the right balance of projecting "core" of sound / "resonance", and feed back ( what the player feels & hears ). Bells: It's been my experience, everthing else being equal, if the bracing isn't right, a potentially GREAT trumpet will be a non-responsive "pig" to try to play. (now that's just one variable we could talk about until Bill Clinton admits to ... "sex with that woman" ... but we don't have that much time) __________________ "~iii<O" Michael Manthey Scodwell USA Trumpets Bob Reeves Mpc's www.ultrapureoils.com Maynard Ferguson BBN Band

02-20-2004, 11:41 PM	#40 (permalink)
W Scott Piano User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Carson City, NV. Posts: 490	Yeah, if the bracing isn't right the bell isn't going to do what? RESONATE! You said it was just an amplifier and it's not! The bell resonates and if it can't do that it's going to be a dog. What makes a bell resonate? Air! So, if the bell doesn't resonate well, there's going to a lot of back pressure building up. Yeah, you need to lay off of it, but the horn is still going to sound bad. My reason for harping on this is that some folks want to say that the real variable is the player. That just isn't so as can be seen from the way that the bells on different horns vibrate, the bracing, tuning slides and all of that. As for low compression being free blowing, I don't agree with that. My Conn director is shot with leaky valves and a tuning slide that can be blown out of the horn. The horn still has pretty much the same resisitance that it always has. What I have noticed is that it doesn't slot worth a hoot any more and it sounds all 'oooophey' like escaping air. That's why I tend to believe that resistance is found in the bell and the bracing for the bell. If that's true, then loss of compression isn't going to affect the resistance all that much. As for mouthpieces, I haven't found any difference in resistance using mouthpieces IF I have a horn that resonantes well. For me, the size of the mouthpiece and shape of the rim generally matter more than backbore. If a horn has a tough time reaching into the upper register I'll use a tight backbore, but otherwise I don't 'feel' much of a difference. Just some late night thoughts.................. Bill __________________ Gabriel is NOT a woodwind player!

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