Describe " Free Blowing " - Page 5

dcstep · 02-21-2004, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W Scott

As for low compression being free blowing, I don't agree with that. My Conn director is shot with leaky valves and a tuning slide that can be blown out of the horn. The horn still has pretty much the same resisitance that it always has.

I don't think MPM was speaking of valve compression (valves with good "compression" don't leak). Instead, I thought he was speaking of the resistance that some horns give you by virtue of there design (leadpipe, bore size, bell size, bell flare, bracing, etc., etc. all have an impact here) and not whether the valves needed a rebuild. He was speaking about "horns that offer little compression" in the context of a "free blowing" horn.

Dave

dcstep · 02-21-2004, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W Scott

As for mouthpieces, I haven't found any difference in resistance using mouthpieces IF I have a horn that resonantes well. For me, the size of the mouthpiece and shape of the rim generally matter more than backbore. If a horn has a tough time reaching into the upper register I'll use a tight backbore, but otherwise I don't 'feel' much of a difference.

W Scott's statement absolutely baffles me. My horn resonates well (there's no doubt about this), but I easily detect differences in the resistance of various mpcs. I believe that the throat and backbore have more to do with that feel than any other parameters.

For instance, Pops had an "experimental" mpc the other night, with a really small throat and a complex, double-cup style cup. If you backed way off, it was playable, particularly up high, BUT if you overloaded it in the least it was a total stop-up. I consider that "resistance". OTOH, some mouthpieces have such open throats and backbores that they offer almost no resistance, no matter how much you put into them.

Best regards,

Dave

camelbrass · 02-21-2004, 09:36 AM

Hi,

I actually have 2 mouthpieces that have basically the same cup and rim construction but have different backbores. The mouthpiece on my Taylor was copied from my GR but we purposely machined it with a tighter backbore. OK the mouthpiece is heavier than the GR but it has a noticeable effect on endurance and range..maybe at the expense of some tone but on the Taylor that's never in short supply.

The resonance/resistance thing is interesting. I play 2 trumpets that are at either ends of that scale..the Kanstul resonates like hell and the Taylor hardly does at all. Both are regarded as very 'free blowing' horns but IMHO the Taylor plays tighter (I believe because of the weight) even though it has the bigger bore. Interesting discussion though.

Just my observations.

Regards

Trevor

dcstep · 02-21-2004, 10:02 AM

Trevor and I seem to be on the same page.

Dave

W Scott · 02-21-2004, 01:01 PM

So, to recap, Trevor and Dave----you think that the resistance is at the mouthpiece or can be changed to focus on the mouthpiece?

As for the Taylors, I played one back at WoodWind/Brasswind and hated the thing. It didn't resonate, felt hard to blow and sounded like someone had a Crown Royal bag over the bell.

Dave, as for mouthpieces, I think it would have to be pretty extreme for me to notice a difference. If there was a difference, it would have to be because of the backbore. What I notice is a huge difference in range, endurance and comfort. One thing I thought about in regards to your reply is this----does the size of a person matter? How much? I'm 5'11, former weight lifter weighing about 215 and have a lung volume of over six liters. Maybe I'm pumping out so much air that it would take something extreme to be noticed.

How would you build a low compression horn without it being either A. leaky or B. Resonating well?

Anyway, what I hope will come out of our discussions is something that will allow a player to have form some sort of idea about how a horn might play before actually picking it up. Further, if upon playing the horn and finding the 'feel' not to their liking, too maybe have some ideas for changes to the set up instead of just giving up on the horn.

It's really frustrating (IMO) to have to pick a horn by trial and error. There should be some way to intelligently evaluate how a horn will play other than actually playing it. For example, I like the way the Eclipse horns look that Leigh has, but will the horn work for me? If it doesn't, (too stuffy, too much reisistance) how/what changes do I make? That is where I hope these discussions lead too..............

dcstep · 02-21-2004, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W Scott

How would you build a low compression horn without it being either A. leaky or B. Resonating well?

Among other possibilities, put a large leadpipe on it.

Dave

dcstep · 02-21-2004, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W Scott

Anyway, what I hope will come out of our discussions is something that will allow a player to have form some sort of idea about how a horn might play before actually picking it up. Further, if upon playing the horn and finding the 'feel' not to their liking, too maybe have some ideas for changes to the set up instead of just giving up on the horn.

It's really frustrating (IMO) to have to pick a horn by trial and error. There should be some way to intelligently evaluate how a horn will play other than actually playing it. For example, I like the way the Eclipse horns look that Leigh has, but will the horn work for me? If it doesn't, (too stuffy, too much reisistance) how/what changes do I make? That is where I hope these discussions lead too..............

There are too many variables to come up with an absolute set of rules. They all interact, so you may have the formula almost right, then screw it up with the wrong bell or wrong leadpipe, etc.

HOWEVER, experienced builders can usually build a horn that responds as you desire. You'll need to tell them what you like about your current horn and how you'd change it to better suit you. The good people at Eclipse or Lawler can the suggest a horn to suit your style.

I actually enjoy "trial" and don't consider it an "error" when a horn doesn't suit me. I file that away in order to help someone else that might be better suited to the horn. (It'd be an "error" if I bought a horn and it didn't suit me, but that's never happened).

Dave

dcstep · 02-21-2004, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W Scott

Dave, as for mouthpieces, I think it would have to be pretty extreme for me to notice a difference. If there was a difference, it would have to be because of the backbore. What I notice is a huge difference in range, endurance and comfort. One thing I thought about in regards to your reply is this----does the size of a person matter? How much? I'm 5'11, former weight lifter weighing about 215 and have a lung volume of over six liters. Maybe I'm pumping out so much air that it would take something extreme to be noticed. ........

I doubt that. I'm taller and bigger than you. I suspect you just haven't tried near as many mpcs as I have. No offense meant.

Either that, or there's something about your embouchure that makes it hard for you to feel the resistance. Can you play whisper-quiet (almost unhearable)? If not, you may have an open embouchure and play relatively loud so as to achieve a "good" tone. That would make you less sensitive to mpc resistance, I suspect.

Dave

W Scott · 02-22-2004, 02:25 AM

Well, Dave, you may have played more mouthpieces---I stopped trying at about thirty when I found one that worked for me and for my horn. No offense taken.

Can I play whisper quiet? Yes----but, what's an 'open embochure'?

I've bought horns that didn't work for me. That's why I'm curious as to why they didn't work. Dave, Trevor---et al....take a look at the article at this site:

www.smithwatkins.com

then pick 'technical articles'. The first article that comes up should be a discussion on the resonance of the bell. I found this by accident today, but it pretty much says it all for me. Read the article and see what you think.

As for making the leadpipe bigger---nope, I don't think it will work if the leadpipe is not matched up to the bell. Besides, you can only make a leadpipe only so big! :)

Bill

camelbrass · 02-22-2004, 03:04 AM

Hi,

Bill, both Dave and you know a lot more about this than me. I read the Derek Watkins article and I'm sure he's talking about the internal resonance of the whole trumpet...reflected back by the bell (please correct me if I'm wrong) and not the bell's ability to vibrate per se. In fact he says that only about 1% of the energy put into playing is amplified by the bell as sound. I'm a banker and not a phycisist..thank goodness!!

Or I have I misunderstood?

What I can say is that both the Taylor and the Kanstul react to the bore of the mouthpiece no matter how I mix and match them. One weighs 2lb and the other nearly 4lb (a lot of it in the bell). I'm also a 230 pound ex Tuba player so I think the physical side is pretty well covered.

Shame you didn't like the Taylor but I guess they're not for everybody. Interesting discussion though.

Have fun.

Trevor

PS Sorry I've just realised it's Richard Smith who wrote the article.

02-21-2004, 10:02 AM	#44 (permalink)
dcstep Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Denver Posts: 679	Trevor and I seem to be on the same page. Dave __________________ Schilke '60 B1 Selmer Paris -- '57 #20 K-Modified/ '03 Concept TT w/ GR66.8B2.8 '94 Lawler TL cornet w/ Sparx 2B Conn Vintage One flugel - GR66FD www.pitpops.com www.ucm-inc.com Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

02-21-2004, 01:01 PM	#45 (permalink)
W Scott Piano User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Carson City, NV. Posts: 490	So, to recap, Trevor and Dave----you think that the resistance is at the mouthpiece or can be changed to focus on the mouthpiece? As for the Taylors, I played one back at WoodWind/Brasswind and hated the thing. It didn't resonate, felt hard to blow and sounded like someone had a Crown Royal bag over the bell. Dave, as for mouthpieces, I think it would have to be pretty extreme for me to notice a difference. If there was a difference, it would have to be because of the backbore. What I notice is a huge difference in range, endurance and comfort. One thing I thought about in regards to your reply is this----does the size of a person matter? How much? I'm 5'11, former weight lifter weighing about 215 and have a lung volume of over six liters. Maybe I'm pumping out so much air that it would take something extreme to be noticed. How would you build a low compression horn without it being either A. leaky or B. Resonating well? Anyway, what I hope will come out of our discussions is something that will allow a player to have form some sort of idea about how a horn might play before actually picking it up. Further, if upon playing the horn and finding the 'feel' not to their liking, too maybe have some ideas for changes to the set up instead of just giving up on the horn. It's really frustrating (IMO) to have to pick a horn by trial and error. There should be some way to intelligently evaluate how a horn will play other than actually playing it. For example, I like the way the Eclipse horns look that Leigh has, but will the horn work for me? If it doesn't, (too stuffy, too much reisistance) how/what changes do I make? That is where I hope these discussions lead too.............. __________________ Gabriel is NOT a woodwind player!

02-22-2004, 02:25 AM	#49 (permalink)
W Scott Piano User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Carson City, NV. Posts: 490	Well, Dave, you may have played more mouthpieces---I stopped trying at about thirty when I found one that worked for me and for my horn. No offense taken. Can I play whisper quiet? Yes----but, what's an 'open embochure'? I've bought horns that didn't work for me. That's why I'm curious as to why they didn't work. Dave, Trevor---et al....take a look at the article at this site: www.smithwatkins.com then pick 'technical articles'. The first article that comes up should be a discussion on the resonance of the bell. I found this by accident today, but it pretty much says it all for me. Read the article and see what you think. As for making the leadpipe bigger---nope, I don't think it will work if the leadpipe is not matched up to the bell. Besides, you can only make a leadpipe only so big! :) Bill __________________ Gabriel is NOT a woodwind player!

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02-21-2004, 09:36 AM	#43 (permalink)
camelbrass Mezzo Forte User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Dubai, UAE Posts: 797	Hi, I actually have 2 mouthpieces that have basically the same cup and rim construction but have different backbores. The mouthpiece on my Taylor was copied from my GR but we purposely machined it with a tighter backbore. OK the mouthpiece is heavier than the GR but it has a noticeable effect on endurance and range..maybe at the expense of some tone but on the Taylor that's never in short supply. The resonance/resistance thing is interesting. I play 2 trumpets that are at either ends of that scale..the Kanstul resonates like hell and the Taylor hardly does at all. Both are regarded as very 'free blowing' horns but IMHO the Taylor plays tighter (I believe because of the weight) even though it has the bigger bore. Interesting discussion though. Just my observations. Regards Trevor

02-22-2004, 03:04 AM	#50 (permalink)
camelbrass Mezzo Forte User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Dubai, UAE Posts: 797	Hi, Bill, both Dave and you know a lot more about this than me. I read the Derek Watkins article and I'm sure he's talking about the internal resonance of the whole trumpet...reflected back by the bell (please correct me if I'm wrong) and not the bell's ability to vibrate per se. In fact he says that only about 1% of the energy put into playing is amplified by the bell as sound. I'm a banker and not a phycisist..thank goodness!! Or I have I misunderstood? What I can say is that both the Taylor and the Kanstul react to the bore of the mouthpiece no matter how I mix and match them. One weighs 2lb and the other nearly 4lb (a lot of it in the bell). I'm also a 230 pound ex Tuba player so I think the physical side is pretty well covered. Shame you didn't like the Taylor but I guess they're not for everybody. Interesting discussion though. Have fun. Trevor PS Sorry I've just realised it's Richard Smith who wrote the article.

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