Shermy

NYTC, in case you didn't know, the poster to which you are responding is a computer generated personality. Check out a thread here in the Horns section entitled Science Fiction (?). I suggest not encouraging it. Better yet, Mods, can this thing be banned?

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Kanstul ZKT 1601 TW
Kanstul ZKF 1525
Yamaha YTR 6810s
Bach 37*
-Curry 2BC, 2FL, 2*, 2TF

camelbrass

Jerry and Robin,

There is (or was) a video clip on the Monette website with Manny playing excerpts with another player that really rang out those resultant overtones. Pleasing or not was in the ear of the beholder.

Last year when doing a natural trumpet course I opined that the nat had lots of character because it sounded slightly out of tune. I was swiftly told by Micheal Laird that the nat was perfectly in tune.

As to slotting wasn't the idea of the famous H pipe on Bach Cs to loosen the slotting up on those dodgy notes so that a strong player (eg Herseth) could lip things in? Trumpet design seems to be one set of compromises after another...it's the relationship between those compromises that makes things interesting (and complex).

Felix you're a designer (and Andy Taylor if he's looking in) how do approach these complexities?

Regards,


Trevor

rowuk

Godchaser,
I second Felixs' post. I will not answer any of your posts that I feel require AI to interpet. We have many types of players at TM and I refuse to limit my information to the pseudo intellectuals. Everybody (even our foreign members) can benefit from clear concise english. I am sure that you know what I mean, so let's not get into a semantics war! The Voice of America (short wave radio) was always my model for universally understandable english!

So to answer your first post which was very concise:
The basics can be found at the following sites:
Brass instrument (lip reed) acoustics: an introduction
Welcome at the pages of the IWK (Institute of Musical Acoustics) - click on research, then simulation of brass instruments - or any of the other links - they are all good and not tied to any manufacturer
The 'Internal' Spectrum of the Modern Trumpet
Systematic approach to the correction of intonation in wind instruments
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The Physics of Dreamtime: An analysis of the acoustical properties of a didgeridoo
A. Hirschberg, J. Gilbert, R. Msallam, A.P.J. Wijnands: Shock Waves in Trombones (JASA, September 6, 1995). Médiathèque de l'Ircam © Ircam, 1996-2003 - Institut de Recherche et Coordination Acoustique/Musique - Paris, France
On the Use of Schrodinger’s Equation in the Analytic Determination of <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Horn</b> Reectance 1 Introduction 2 Webster’s Equation
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Horn Theory

This should get you started. Many of those links have further links with related info.

Except for Richard Smith at Smith/Watkins, I don't know of anyone using a calculator to improve or design their trumpets. I believe most of the REAL acoustic improvements are based on experience, trial and error but not mathematics. Schilke tried, but math did not make his horns "better". They were in tune earlier than others, but the "sound" did not universally catch on. Mathematics can improve the piece to piece consistency - as Yamaha has proven!

As far as the "frequency response" for bright, dark, projecting and stuffy, I have measured spectral plots of my horns but not down to the specific overtone. I have recordings of several like tones with all of my instruments, but have had no time to break the results down. Derek Reaban has some excellent posts here at TM on his work - just do a search on that.

The fundemental and harmonics of a trumpet do not have a set curve of intensity. This is because the bell amplifies in a linear fashion-regardless of trumpet length. It has a specific taper and that will behave in a predicable fashion. That is why we have different bells on well designed Bb, C .... trumpets.
The strength of each overtone for each individual note on EVERY trumpet is a bit different. We actually do not hear much fundemental at all. The note that we perceive to hear is actually the first harmonic (That is why a clarinet that is half as long plays in the same range as the trumpet). The even multiples of that first harmonic make for a solid "core" and I believe projection. There is no acoustic cancellation. The odd multiples give the sound "character" but cause resultant tones not related to the first harmonic, thereby reducing total output through acoustic cancellation. In this explanation, the "ringing" of the bell or other losses have not been considered, but here we also have sum and differences of acoustic output. All of this makes a "calculation" for what is dark or bright a moving target.

As to your hypothetical (or was that hype pathetical) formula post. That went over the border of "common understanding". What I think that you meant is answered in one of the links above.

Trevor,
there have been many attempts to patch the Bach C problems. At the Bach Forum, they recommend a size 24 throat to "fix" the issue - that is a real slot killer on a Bach mouthpiece. I think the H pipe(that I own) was a sound issue as was the A pipe(that I tried in the 70s but didn't like). I have tried several other leadpipes without success. I think that I will get a tuning bell conversion - that seems to work.
The intonation of the Bach C is not necessarily a design issue as some are reasonably in tune. I think it must be the tolerances of production that give us such a big spread in intonation and blow!

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Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

Veldkamp

I want to share my thoughts about efficiency. Some say a horn is efficient if the energy you put in a horn comes out the horn without to much loss. Jason Harrelson developed his SWE technology and I think the heavy horns have the same effect (amongst other things).

What I noticed playing those horns is that most sound is in front of the bell and the feedback the player gets is less then with a standard horn which have more energy loss. As a result I have to work harder in a tutti, to hear myself. That's why I start to play louder as needed so the band starts playing louder, etc. etc.

So what means efficient to me:

- good response
- as much in tune as possible
- a rich sound
- good slotting but also flexible enough (also above high c)
- enough feedback to hear myself well enough in a section
- good projection
- the horn must help to create MY sound, not his sound
- stay open in the upper register

I noticed the Bob Reeves Cylinder Reinforcer worked well on my former Bach to prevent energy loss. It dampens the vibration on the valve block, especially on the 3rd valve where most energy is lost. You notice a bit more projection, slotting gets a bit better but you don't have the disavantages of more weight on the horn.

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NYTC

Shermy,
Chris is actually a real person, and I've spoken with him on few occasions personally.
And yes,he does talk exactly the same way he writes.:)

OK,back to the topic.

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Stage 1 Trumpets

godchaser

Thanks for that Felix! :)


"All of this makes a "calculation" for what is a dark or bright moving target."

Much thanks there Robin! That was my meaning of my numbers illustration there. And as it was, i thought that post would be the mark of your describing me a 'pseudo-intellectual'. :) Which is pretty funny, given that this was my thinking to write the second!

LOL

That's funny.... you gotta admit-

Nonetheless, the material you posted, (many thanks!), will probably tie in my considering what a 'neutral horn', rather than a bright/dark design, may resemble? Which was my meaning to the 'shop talk' of 'hypothetical build formulas'- or what may be a 'practically applied less/more harmonic response by design' there Felix. What i should have said was a centered/neutral design, rather than less/more. Which didn't seem like a task of the maths references you spoke to Robin, but possibly there'd be something to that there, was my meaning? Didn't intend to muddy it up.

And i guess i have to say this, considering the disrespectful back bitin'. -My ego's plenty big enough as it is; i don't have any needs to 'hype', my trying to learn something on'a forum. By that i mean, i'm at a disadvantage in trying to express my thinking from a perspective of complexity, when it's far simpler than not. I just don't have the language yet. And i appreciate your trying to moderate a constructive thread, but i can't help the way i talk. It's no doubt a cumulative response to a life long inability to make myself clear-

It's my Kentucky hillbilly roots havin' me on. Apologies to anybody reading my posts with any interest.

Incidentally Robin, i'd like to post some questions later on, over in the Sci Fi thread of player/instrument relationship, in their dark/bright balance you spoke to before. If i gathered your meaning right? I hope you'll respond. Possibly this is more still, of what brings about a 'neutral' horn? And if there's some builders here that'd be willing to speak to that in general terms. That'd be tremendous! Huge thanks!


Cheers.. Chris

godchaser

-Or another thought. Maybe here, if that's better? My questions follow design flow.

Let me know-

rowuk

Mr. Godchaser - this thread is only about how a trumpet works, what the various parts do, how they interact, to eventually give interested readers not all of the answers, but a very good overview and if desired, the tools to find more.

I won't hijack my own thread to zero in on a neutral or unneutral trumpet - because that is in the trained EAR of the player, not in the pocket calculator of the designer (here we go again..........). I also request that YOU refrain from hijacking this thread. I am the wrong person for neutral anyway, I feel that every type of music and ensemble needs the correct tool and use many different instruments to meet those sonic and musical goals.

Try and find some sales figures for the last 10 years or so, there you will probably find the most universally accepted trumpet - probably made by Yamaha. That would be "neutral" by my standards.

There will be plenty of posts here when we get to materials, brace location, rim wires, leadpipes, tuning slides, building techniques and plating. Maybe I will even get into how humidity and altitude can completely change the playing characteristics and intonation of a horn....... (I had an experience in La Paz once and others in the Alps!).

Stay tuned in - information in tidbit size are less likely to make one choke! Maybe you will find what you are looking for.

If you need individual attention, start a thread - "Help me build my IDEAL trumpet". Describe in simple terms what you want and you will probably get some helpful suggestions. Several TMers have gone this route, with the help of some very fine artisans (none with 3D wire modelling, anechoic response testing or accellerometer tuned brace placement)! As far as I can tell, no one was unhappy and they all could play enough to tell the difference.

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Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

bilboinsa

Getting back to Robin's OP, here is a simple question from a simple mind. What happens (wave-wise) to a trumpet's note when the volume increases? I know that when pitch goes up/down, the frequency of the wave increases/decreases respectively. However, is there a change in the wave form itself if the trumpet volume is increased/decreased?

p.s. My only science memories in this area rekindle a Baron Von Frankenstein-era instrument called an oscilloscope (sp?) that showed wave variations based on pitches when you turned a clicking dial......ooooooh,that wavy green line goes up and down and up and down and up and....

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Doug Walsdorf

Schilke B2
Kanstul 1525
1927 Conn 22B New York Symphony

"In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbit-hole, and that means comfort."

rowuk

Simple answer: There is a change in the wave form. The louder that we play, the larger the amplitude of the signal, when the amplitude becomes greater than the horn can handle, it starts to "clip" much like an audio amplifier. This increases the amount of high frequency energy in the form of distortion components. The sound gets brighter (and successively more distorted!).

There is a lot more that happens when we play loudly - more of that when we address the myth of large and medium bore trumpets!

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Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.