godchaser

-No problem there Robin. That's why i asked. I hope to see you over in the Sci Fi thread. I have some questions that i'll be able to post later on; that go to your thinking of 'correct tool' and 'trained EAR'.

By example, how do we define a player's natural motion of bright or dark play? I spoke with veery about this but i haven't heard back from'em whether he agreed with my thinking or not? Or to other's sense of this and or, its universal description. It's central of my questioning.

Incidentally, congratulations on your Globe Trotting Play! Very cool. I envy your experiences.

VetPsychWars

I asked a similar question on another forum and got ignored.

My horn has a bell flare that seems almost a straight cone from through the bell bow almost to the end. The pictures of other horns, including the old Committees, don't seem this... open?

How does such a flare contribute to the overall character of the horn? (I'll go back and read those links soon.)

Tom

rowuk

Tom,
that is a tough question to answer without seeing and playing the horn.

The flare of the bell raises the lower notes in pitch and also gives the trumpet its characteristic brazen sound. The flare rate has a lot to do with the efficiency and projection of the instrument. It could be that it was built for somebody that wanted a more "horn-like" sound.

I had a very wide bell on an old rotary Bb (1936) and the horn sounded very stuffy, it didn't have good projection either. I made a couple of small wooden rods that I stuck into the bell to see if changing the flare would change the sound - it sure did. I was able to brighten up the sound and it was easier to play!

__________________
Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

VetPsychWars

It does seem to have a warmer, darker core.

It's a 1949 Buescher 400. It's the only horn I ever played. It wasn't custom, they're all like this.

Here's a picture.

Tom

rowuk

Tom,
that is a bell shape that was popular around the turn of the last century (they had a different overall sound concept back then - not quite as obsessed in blowing walls down........! Composers even dared to write ffff in the parts.......... - wouldn't happen today!). I have several older instruments with a similar shape. What is also notable is that the flare starts in the bow. Many "older" trumpet builders said that this was very important for intonation and sound! Good looking horn.

__________________
Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

rowuk

What does the leadpipe do?

To examine this facet of the trumpet, it is useful to look back to the time when trumpets did not have leadpipes - when they were natural trumpets.

The trumpet differed from the horn in that it was made of cylindrical tubing from the mouthpiece to the beginning of the bell. This changed the overtone structure and made the tone much more brilliant than the conically bored horn. The basic problem with the trumpet was the poor intonation of the octaves. There were several bell and mouthpiece designs to counterbalance this, but it remained problematic. I am sure that the trumpets lack of virtuoso presence in classical music was due to these intonation issues as well as the inability to play chromatically. The horn with its inherent better intonation, softer tone and the ability to play chromatics by stuffing ones hand in the bell, made it more suitable for the emerging classical style
After the invention of the valve, it was possible to make the trumpet shorter, increasing the playing accuracy, but increasing the intonation issues. The mouthpieces during the baroque period were considerably longer than modern mouthpieces and the backbore was an opportunity to bring the octaves closer into tune without having to lip up or down or use excessively large mouthpieces. I believe Stöltzel with his valves was one of the first to implement a stepped bore leadpipe and we see with the invention of the cornet a far superior intonation that makes a method like Arban even possible. Trumpets of that day were surely not capable of effortlessly presenting things like the Carnival of Venice!
While the development in Germany clearly kept the cylindrical bore trumpet in place, the development of the piston valved instruments in France tried to emulate the success of the cornet in trumpet design. The modern piston trumpet form as we know it today with its long leadpipe was born. Making the trumpet much more conical in nature improved the intonation dramatically, but it also changed the sound from the regal, brassy cylindrical instrument with different sounds in the low medium and high register to a rounder, more evenly toned instrument. This sound was not accepted in Germany and to this day, rotary instruments are designed with a completely different concept.
But back to the leadpipe: this tapered tube has more control over the intonation of a trumpet than any other part. It also controls the resistance one feels when playing. There are no set rules governing the taper or proportions and there is no general agreement as to what is best. For many manufacturers, this is the only part that they can call there own invention. Bells are bought from one manufacturer, the valves from another and braces from a third, still the end product resembles no other sonically. I believe that manufacturing tolerances in leadpipe construction are the major cause of intonation issues in mass produced professional trumpets.
So there is a lot more one could say, but this is not supposed to be a monologue!

__________________
Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

Shermy

So how does resonance play into all of this. In particular, when Jack Kanstul speaks of a resonating tube, what is he exactly talking about? Is it the lead pipe, the bell, the entire trumpet?
Here is the original post from Jack Kanstul:

Of course, I now play on a Kanstul, and I've got to admit, they come alive in my hand like no other trumpets that I've personally played. However, I'm still not sure if this is what Jack means.

__________________
Kanstul ZKT 1601 TW
Kanstul ZKF 1525
Yamaha YTR 6810s
Bach 37*
-Curry 2BC, 2FL, 2*, 2TF

c.nelson

Killer thread rowuk!
Last week, I made a decision to return my cornet shank/reciever to original.
My trumpet receiver mod was ill thought out. It did brighten the sound but has also
caused unacceptable intonation problems.
the original shank is a stepped thing.(one step)
I don't have the correct historical mp (odd taper)
so I crammed an old bach 7c cornet piece in it and BAM!.... much better intonation.
One thing I failed to mention is that when I had the trumpet reciever/shank made,
I had the tech lengthen the pipe so I wouldn't have to pull the tuning slide out
so far to reach a440. This was another bad mistake as I now believe in 1911
they were still making some high pitch instruments(466hz).
My tech warned me against none of this.
I have learned now to respect the original design and not try to second guess
the designer.
I gotta get an original mp.AND A NEW HORN TECH!
.................................................. .................................................. .............

I can't seem to find it now, but came across a maker site that was promoting
stepped trumpet lead pipes.As I remember, these pipes had 12 steps,
each step tuned to an interval of the chromatic scale.The claim was that
when matched to to the particular trumpet,valve slides would never be used again,save tuning for chords.
.................................................. .................................................. ...................
I'd like to throw out a few statements here, please correct if nessesary;

A cornet, due to its more conical nature will tend to empasise more "even partials"(integer multiples of the fundamental)
giving it a "sweeter" sound.

A trumpets more cylindric bore tends to emphasise more "odd partials", giving a brighter, more"tart"sound.

__________________

The perfect man has no self; the holy man has no merit; the sage has no fame.(Chang Tsu)

rowuk

CN,
Schilke has advertised the stepped bore on his leadpipe - 14 steps if I remember correctly! Renold did this to make his instruments better in tune.
I have seen no data on horns having more "even" overtones. I would tend to think not as the tone production is identical to the trumpet: the lips to not vibrate like 2 reeds or guitar strings, they open and close like a switch. This causes a very overtone rich basic sound. The "brilliance" associated with the trumpet has more to do with the bell size being small compared to the frequencies played. This "amplifies" the upper overtones more. The horn has a much bigger bell which can amplify the lower partials better.

Designing a trumpet is not hard - parts are available everywhere, designing a great trumpet is hard work requiring more than just casual knowledge of what is possible. Improving a good design is also not "easy" even although we have plenty of claims to he contrary. A leadpipe for a Bach with "better intonation" will ALWAYS change the blow, efficiency, slots and sound character. You can't have it all at the same time, but certain designs give a better "balance" for particular players.

Shermy,
The whole trumpet is a resonating tube. Without getting into the math, a horn can be used as a megaphone or loudspeaker - amplifying many frequencies at the same time with "no" resonance if it is designed correctly. If I change the design, I can get the horn to resonate at specific frequencies - a brass instrument is born. The more the horn "resonates", the more efficient it is AND the harder it is to play and tune, so each designer must balance the technology and hope that the customer approves.

There have been MANY "resonance" features advertised in the last 100 years. Still ALL of the instruments work with the same basic principals and I have not seen ANY additions to the laws of physics as applied to the trumpet.

Kanstul builds very high quality instruments and works with leading pros, so he probably has found a different balance and calls that resonating tube. Getting back to the truth, the amount of resonance allowable is determined by the amount of back pressure (resistance) acceptable and intonation concerns. More resonance = more resistance AND more difficult tuning.

__________________
Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

Shermy

Thanks Robin!!

So basically, if Jack's claims are correct, Kanstul has tipped the scale more toward resonance. I'm sure the math isn't as simple as I'm going to make it out to be, but from what you describe above, if Kanstul's horns truly resonate more than the competitor's, then something has to suffer, i.e. playability, or intonation, right? Or, can you have your cake and eat it too? From my limited experience, it seems you can.

__________________
Kanstul ZKT 1601 TW
Kanstul ZKF 1525
Yamaha YTR 6810s
Bach 37*
-Curry 2BC, 2FL, 2*, 2TF