I'm gonna try a C Ajna! - Page 4

rowuk · 01-08-2008, 09:38 AM

alittlebirdy has hit the nail on the head, it is sound and contrary to his definition, it is NOT because the sound is not acceptable.
The definition of acceptable according to Webster is "worth accepting, pleasing, agreeable" all traits applicable to every decent trumpet on the planet.
I think a better definition is that they deviate too far from the established standard. This is not a question of quality, but of preference and applies to many other instruments other than Monette. The issue with Monette ONLY comes up because of the price. In the US I am sure that B&S, Holton, CONN, and King......... suffer a similar fate and most certainly not because of the quality of the instrument, but due to the same brand blindness.
The music industry adressed this in the 60s if I am not mistaken with the following song titled Little Boxes by Malvina Reynolds:

1. Little boxes on the hillside,
Little boxes made of ticky-tacky,
Little boxes, little boxes,
Little boxes, all the same.
There's a green one and a pink one
And a blue one and a yellow one
And they're all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same.

2. And the people in the houses
All go to the university,
And they all get put in boxes,
Little boxes, all the same.
And there's doctors and there's lawyers
And business executives,
And they're all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same.

3. And they all play on the golf-course,
And drink their Martini dry,
And they all have pretty children,
And the children go to school.
And the children go to summer camp
And then to the university,
And they all get put in boxes
And they all come out the same.

4. And the boys go into business,
And marry, and raise a family,
And they all get put in boxes,
Little boxes, all the same.
There's a green one and a pink one
And a blue one and a yellow one
And they're all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same.

I really enjoy playing in Germany without the prejudice. The jazz world in America never got into the ticky tacky in the first place. I guess the "Major Orchestras" have a bit to learn!

TrentAustin · 01-08-2008, 10:04 AM

I have owned a 993 and loved it. I used this horn and my Sonare exclusively. I actually sold the 993 to a student but due to financial constraints he's selling it back to me and then I might be putting it on ebay or selling again. Heck I could keep it as it's so incredibly easy to play and produces a sound I've never heard from another horn! That's good 'cause I missed the Monette sound. There's nothing like it.

If you want one and can buy it... do it!

B15M · 01-08-2008, 10:17 AM

I was subbing in a professional orchestra and so was the lead trumpet. The guy playing second was the regular player.

The guy playing lead was playing a silver plated 993.
At this time I was fairly new on my Prana one C trumpet and there weren’t many Prana trumpets around.

At break the lead guy and I talked and played each others trumpets. I asked him why he silver plated the trumpet and he told me that he thought he was treated unfairly at auditions because of the trumpet he played. Since he had it silver plated you couldn't tell the difference. It looked just like any other silver trumpet.

I lost track of this guy I think because he won a job with a major symphony. I don't know if he is still playing the Monette.

Here is why I wrote about this:
While he was playing a solo I looked at the conductor. He was looking at the first trumpet with a huge smile on his face. I would say the smile was based on what he was hearing.

Now the orchestra was a local professional orchestra but, the conductor that day was a well known guy who conducts for a living a full time pro orchestra.

Veldkamp · 01-08-2008, 10:34 AM

I can only tell from my experience as a lead player that I would never think of playing a B993 in a lead situation. I tried it a couple of times and it didn't work out the way I liked. It didn't blend that well with lighter horns and I did't get the sound I liked. I don't think Trent uses his B993 for lead stuff either, but only for solo stuff. The Sonare will probably be much more effective in that situation.

Do I think the 993 (or P3) is a great horn: YES!!! But I would only use it for solo stuff, or 4th trumpet. The same goes for my van Laar Oiram. You can play lead on it, but my B4 works much better in that situation.

I think most pro. lead players think like that, because I can't think of one who's playing a heavy horn. Patrick Hession is also playing a lighter model, not a P3.

What's up with Ryan Kisor, is he still playing Monette? I have a recent video of him playing a goldplated Schilke.

rowuk · 01-08-2008, 10:52 AM

I actually am happy that Yamaha has been able to break the Bach stronghold on American orchestras. At least Yamaha can claim R+D, stretching the envelope of what sounds are available AND actually bringing the art of building trumpets forward. Hopefully other brands will now be able to establish themselves!
What is sad is the resistance to opportunity. Playing Beethoven or Mozart with a natural trumpet, Mahler and Brückner with a rotary, West Side Story with a Bach C and D trumpet really turns me on. 1st trumpet on Holsts Planets last year with the Monette Bb Ajna was a real treat.

I have tried to piece together how Bach was able to develop such a stronghold and the only reason that I could come up with was that they had a broad C trumpet program. There are so many very fine vintage Bb instruments available, very little C though. I am sure Wilmer could give us some input here!
In Germany, Bach was not able to take over. They were reputed as sounding sterile, which is not what was really heard. The classic rotary trumpet has a distinctive sound in the low, middle and upper registers. The piston trumpets sound pretty much the same regardless of register. Also the piston trumpets distort earlier than their rotary counterparts. This is due to the crown on the bells and the additional bracing.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with a good Bach trumpet. I do not consider it to be a universal solution however and think that the players in "Major Orchestras" would do themselves AND the music world a favor if they invested in "alternate" colors!

TrentAustin · 01-08-2008, 11:34 AM

I've used my 993 in the past playing lead and do prefer how it plays over anything else but the Sonare' gives me the "edge" to hear myself in the section. I find myself overblowing and actually putting too much sound out while playing the 993. Blend wasn't as much of an issue when I was playing 1st on the Monette. I'm playing a lot more of my Sonare' right now as I'm doing a ton of high-energy playing.

Plus I think the Sonare' I own is the best "conventional" horn I've played. So I'm very lucky to have two amazing horns which actually compliment each other. In fact I might sell the 993because I honestly want the horn to be played more!

Toys toys toys! ;)

camelbrass · 01-08-2008, 01:02 PM

I don't have the pedigrees that you guys do but I'll stand up for the Bach trumpets that I own. Monettes are undoubtedly wonderful trumpets and the very small amount of time I've spent playing one I had somewhat mixed results with...probably more a reflection of me than on the trumpet.

My main Strads are relatively recent trumpets. I think what impresses me most is there ability to 'colour'. I can either be a part of the pallete of colours or I can be the bright yellow splashed all over the canvas (metaphor time again).

I haven't played another trumpet, yet, that lets me do that so instinctively.

Just a bit of balance, hopefully. If a Monette, or anything else, floats your boat go for it I say.

Regards,

Trevor

B15M · 01-08-2008, 01:34 PM

I think Mr. Bach and Mr. Monette are very similar.

When Bach was around a player could go to the factory and try horns and have Mr. Bach make changes or adjust the trumpet.

If you do research you will find a lot of different Bach models. A ton of different bells and different sounds.

I think this is why his trumpets took such a hold on the industry.
Dave Monette is basically doing the same thing. Dave has the advantage of already knowing what Bach did.

I don't think Dave made a heavy trumpet and said to some key players, "this is it, now play it". It is something that evolved based on what players said they wanted. The same as the Bach #6 and #37 and #72.

Dave’s trumpets are still evolving. Maybe he hasn't hit on the one that will take over yet.

By the way, Trent explained also for me why I don't play lead in a big band with the 993. That doesn't make the 993 a NG Trumpet, just not right for me in that setting. That could be said for any trumpet at any time for a given player.

TrentAustin · 01-08-2008, 10:25 PM

I can't wait to try out that MF Prana! When's the delivery date? ;)
-T

B15M · 01-09-2008, 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrentAustin

I can't wait to try out that MF Prana! When's the delivery date? ;)
-T

I'm not sure if this question is meant for me but since I'm getting one, about August.

Think of a trumpet that plays like the 993 from low C to about G just over the staff and as you get higher the sound gets a lighter sound and more sizzle. When you push it it opens up like the volume of the 993 and the sound of the best lead trumpet you ever played.

I was playing the MF at ITG and Manny stopped about five feet in front of me and listened. (No pressure there) I was playing the second movement of the Hummel. When I was done he said, "you have a perfect orchestral sound" I answered back "what?" I heard him but I wanted to hear him say it again. Anyway that comment was made while playing the MF. I was afraid to push really hard in the upper register because of who was in the room but I can't wait to play it in a big band. I will say to the section, "can you hear me now?"

01-08-2008, 09:38 AM	#31 (permalink)
rowuk Moderator Fortissimo User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 4,228	Re: I'm gonna try a C Ajna! alittlebirdy has hit the nail on the head, it is sound and contrary to his definition, it is NOT because the sound is not acceptable. The definition of acceptable according to Webster is "worth accepting, pleasing, agreeable" all traits applicable to every decent trumpet on the planet. I think a better definition is that they deviate too far from the established standard. This is not a question of quality, but of preference and applies to many other instruments other than Monette. The issue with Monette ONLY comes up because of the price. In the US I am sure that B&S, Holton, CONN, and King......... suffer a similar fate and most certainly not because of the quality of the instrument, but due to the same brand blindness. The music industry adressed this in the 60s if I am not mistaken with the following song titled Little Boxes by Malvina Reynolds: 1. Little boxes on the hillside, Little boxes made of ticky-tacky, Little boxes, little boxes, Little boxes, all the same. There's a green one and a pink one And a blue one and a yellow one And they're all made out of ticky-tacky And they all look just the same. 2. And the people in the houses All go to the university, And they all get put in boxes, Little boxes, all the same. And there's doctors and there's lawyers And business executives, And they're all made out of ticky-tacky And they all look just the same. 3. And they all play on the golf-course, And drink their Martini dry, And they all have pretty children, And the children go to school. And the children go to summer camp And then to the university, And they all get put in boxes And they all come out the same. 4. And the boys go into business, And marry, and raise a family, And they all get put in boxes, Little boxes, all the same. There's a green one and a pink one And a blue one and a yellow one And they're all made out of ticky-tacky And they all look just the same. I really enjoy playing in Germany without the prejudice. The jazz world in America never got into the ticky tacky in the first place. I guess the "Major Orchestras" have a bit to learn! __________________ Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again. Last edited by rowuk; 01-08-2008 at 09:41 AM.

01-08-2008, 10:04 AM	#32 (permalink)
TrentAustin Moderator Forte User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,533	Re: I'm gonna try a C Ajna! I have owned a 993 and loved it. I used this horn and my Sonare exclusively. I actually sold the 993 to a student but due to financial constraints he's selling it back to me and then I might be putting it on ebay or selling again. Heck I could keep it as it's so incredibly easy to play and produces a sound I've never heard from another horn! That's good 'cause I missed the Monette sound. There's nothing like it. If you want one and can buy it... do it! __________________ Trent Austin Taking a break to focus on my music but I am lurking around. If you want to chat PM me. http://www.trentaustin.com http://www.onlinejazzimprovisation.com Last edited by TrentAustin; 01-08-2008 at 01:26 PM. Reason: clarification

01-08-2008, 10:17 AM	#33 (permalink)
B15M Forte User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Monroe Ct. Posts: 1,262	Re: I'm gonna try a C Ajna! I was subbing in a professional orchestra and so was the lead trumpet. The guy playing second was the regular player. The guy playing lead was playing a silver plated 993. At this time I was fairly new on my Prana one C trumpet and there weren’t many Prana trumpets around. At break the lead guy and I talked and played each others trumpets. I asked him why he silver plated the trumpet and he told me that he thought he was treated unfairly at auditions because of the trumpet he played. Since he had it silver plated you couldn't tell the difference. It looked just like any other silver trumpet. I lost track of this guy I think because he won a job with a major symphony. I don't know if he is still playing the Monette. Here is why I wrote about this: While he was playing a solo I looked at the conductor. He was looking at the first trumpet with a huge smile on his face. I would say the smile was based on what he was hearing. Now the orchestra was a local professional orchestra but, the conductor that day was a well known guy who conducts for a living a full time pro orchestra. __________________ http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...ndid=238487314 http://webpages.charter.net/joespitzer/

01-08-2008, 10:34 AM	#34 (permalink)
Veldkamp Piano User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: the Netherlands Posts: 379	Re: I'm gonna try a C Ajna! I can only tell from my experience as a lead player that I would never think of playing a B993 in a lead situation. I tried it a couple of times and it didn't work out the way I liked. It didn't blend that well with lighter horns and I did't get the sound I liked. I don't think Trent uses his B993 for lead stuff either, but only for solo stuff. The Sonare will probably be much more effective in that situation. Do I think the 993 (or P3) is a great horn: YES!!! But I would only use it for solo stuff, or 4th trumpet. The same goes for my van Laar Oiram. You can play lead on it, but my B4 works much better in that situation. I think most pro. lead players think like that, because I can't think of one who's playing a heavy horn. Patrick Hession is also playing a lighter model, not a P3. What's up with Ryan Kisor, is he still playing Monette? I have a recent video of him playing a goldplated Schilke. __________________ www.erikveldkamp.com http://trumpetkings.blogspot.com Last edited by Veldkamp; 01-08-2008 at 10:39 AM.

01-08-2008, 10:52 AM	#35 (permalink)
rowuk Moderator Fortissimo User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 4,228	Re: I'm gonna try a C Ajna! I actually am happy that Yamaha has been able to break the Bach stronghold on American orchestras. At least Yamaha can claim R+D, stretching the envelope of what sounds are available AND actually bringing the art of building trumpets forward. Hopefully other brands will now be able to establish themselves! What is sad is the resistance to opportunity. Playing Beethoven or Mozart with a natural trumpet, Mahler and Brückner with a rotary, West Side Story with a Bach C and D trumpet really turns me on. 1st trumpet on Holsts Planets last year with the Monette Bb Ajna was a real treat. I have tried to piece together how Bach was able to develop such a stronghold and the only reason that I could come up with was that they had a broad C trumpet program. There are so many very fine vintage Bb instruments available, very little C though. I am sure Wilmer could give us some input here! In Germany, Bach was not able to take over. They were reputed as sounding sterile, which is not what was really heard. The classic rotary trumpet has a distinctive sound in the low, middle and upper registers. The piston trumpets sound pretty much the same regardless of register. Also the piston trumpets distort earlier than their rotary counterparts. This is due to the crown on the bells and the additional bracing. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with a good Bach trumpet. I do not consider it to be a universal solution however and think that the players in "Major Orchestras" would do themselves AND the music world a favor if they invested in "alternate" colors! __________________ Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

01-08-2008, 11:34 AM	#36 (permalink)
TrentAustin Moderator Forte User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,533	Re: I'm gonna try a C Ajna! I've used my 993 in the past playing lead and do prefer how it plays over anything else but the Sonare' gives me the "edge" to hear myself in the section. I find myself overblowing and actually putting too much sound out while playing the 993. Blend wasn't as much of an issue when I was playing 1st on the Monette. I'm playing a lot more of my Sonare' right now as I'm doing a ton of high-energy playing. Plus I think the Sonare' I own is the best "conventional" horn I've played. So I'm very lucky to have two amazing horns which actually compliment each other. In fact I might sell the 993because I honestly want the horn to be played more! Toys toys toys! ;) __________________ Trent Austin Taking a break to focus on my music but I am lurking around. If you want to chat PM me. http://www.trentaustin.com http://www.onlinejazzimprovisation.com Last edited by TrentAustin; 01-08-2008 at 01:27 PM.

01-08-2008, 01:02 PM	#37 (permalink)
camelbrass Mezzo Forte User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Dubai, UAE Posts: 797	Re: I'm gonna try a C Ajna! I don't have the pedigrees that you guys do but I'll stand up for the Bach trumpets that I own. Monettes are undoubtedly wonderful trumpets and the very small amount of time I've spent playing one I had somewhat mixed results with...probably more a reflection of me than on the trumpet. My main Strads are relatively recent trumpets. I think what impresses me most is there ability to 'colour'. I can either be a part of the pallete of colours or I can be the bright yellow splashed all over the canvas (metaphor time again). I haven't played another trumpet, yet, that lets me do that so instinctively. Just a bit of balance, hopefully. If a Monette, or anything else, floats your boat go for it I say. Regards, Trevor

01-08-2008, 01:34 PM	#38 (permalink)
B15M Forte User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Monroe Ct. Posts: 1,262	Re: I'm gonna try a C Ajna! I think Mr. Bach and Mr. Monette are very similar. When Bach was around a player could go to the factory and try horns and have Mr. Bach make changes or adjust the trumpet. If you do research you will find a lot of different Bach models. A ton of different bells and different sounds. I think this is why his trumpets took such a hold on the industry. Dave Monette is basically doing the same thing. Dave has the advantage of already knowing what Bach did. I don't think Dave made a heavy trumpet and said to some key players, "this is it, now play it". It is something that evolved based on what players said they wanted. The same as the Bach #6 and #37 and #72. Dave’s trumpets are still evolving. Maybe he hasn't hit on the one that will take over yet. By the way, Trent explained also for me why I don't play lead in a big band with the 993. That doesn't make the 993 a NG Trumpet, just not right for me in that setting. That could be said for any trumpet at any time for a given player. __________________ http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...ndid=238487314 http://webpages.charter.net/joespitzer/

01-08-2008, 10:25 PM	#39 (permalink)
TrentAustin Moderator Forte User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,533	Re: I'm gonna try a C Ajna! I can't wait to try out that MF Prana! When's the delivery date? ;) -T __________________ Trent Austin Taking a break to focus on my music but I am lurking around. If you want to chat PM me. http://www.trentaustin.com http://www.onlinejazzimprovisation.com

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