B15M

I only know first hand about Roger Ingram. He is a great player. I think you can get any sound that you want with Monette. I'm not sure that I could get the sound I want from a Bach trumpet anymore. I do a lot of legit playing and along with sound I have to think about tuning.

When I used the Bach today that was an issue. While the Bach had a lot of sizzle I did have to work to keep it in tune. I didn't have to do that on the Monette with the exception of when I put in the mute I brought for the Bach and it went way in the bell and was so sharp I had to pull the slide.

Siegtrmpt

I'll take the bait. The same reason there are very few players playing any other particular type of instrument........more choices and acceptance of different types of sounds. About 30 years ago darn near everyone played a Bach C trumpet because it had the "right" sound and because there simply were not a lot of custom trumpet makers offering the choices we have now. Today there are lots of other good instruments available and we're not so locked into that one sound concept. A good example is the program the Canadian Brass did with the NY and Boston brass sections about 10-12 years ago. 3 significantly different sounds NY Bach, Boston Monette and CB eclectic and lighter but all really good. We have a lot more to choose from and can find instruments that suit our personality or vision of how we want to sound. That's cool.

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Bill S.- NY Bach 6, 38 Mt. Vernon 43 Bach "C" cornet, NY Bach trombone 6vii Monette mouthpieces

Veldkamp

I do not have tuning problems with my Bach, I also did not noticed the Monette tuned better in the normal range but from C3 and higher most top models like the B993, but also my Hub van Laar and other new horns tune and slot much better. So you don't have to correct that much and feel saver in the upper register. It's less tiring.

Playing with mutes is a different story.

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www.erikveldkamp.com
http://trumpetkings.blogspot.com

rowuk

Before the second world war, you could tell what city the orchestra came by their sound. In Dresden and Leipzig the trumpet section played Heckel model rotary instruments. Around Cologne it was Monke. Vienna also has their own instruments. It was real tradition. The American Symphony orchestras went to the one size fits all Bach large bore C (not completely fair because of the variety of leadpipes and bells available - still all in all one single concept).

The Jazz scene is comepletely different - here we have true diversity - and it is better than monoculture. I can understand an american player wanting to sound "standard" - conforming to the masses. We are taught this from birth on. How many young girls want to look like barbie - how many trumpet players want to sound like Bud Herseth or Wynton Marsalis. The truly great players have all done their own thing (Andre with Selmer for instance, Nakariakov with Courtois).
Charlie Schlueter in Boston, Eric Berlin in Albany and countless others prove that heavy works - and Herseth, Vacchiano, Phil Smith, and others prove(d) that a Bach "still" is a great instrument. Yamaha has developed a heavy horn because there are people that want it. Rotary instruments with complete different characteristics also get the job well done.
My point is, it is not the horn, it is the concept of being the same or different. Both have their justification. I have light and heavy horns to fit the job and section that I am playing with. the audience seems to be happy. If the second trumpet player has a much lighter horn than I do, we both have a problem. That is where the discussion needs to be.
A light or heavy horn will not turn a player into something he is not. A lead player in a Jazz band needs a different sound concept than an orchestral player. If you want to do both, you need 2 horns. To play baroque properly too, you need a third horn. If you only play one style and are pressured by the group to conform - you have a choice. Keep your job, exert influence on the group or go somewhere else. Not wanting to change is a psychological issue. I read many forum entries not based on real experience but speculation. That is fine - HOWEVER, if you don't try yourself, you will never know. As with a mouthpiece, light and heavy need time to be properly understood. If you have no time, stay with what you have. Give the other side a real chance and you may just come out a better player, a better person with a more open mind.................

__________________
Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

Siegtrmpt

Rowuk, Great insights and comments. Hope to see you around here often.

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Bill S.- NY Bach 6, 38 Mt. Vernon 43 Bach "C" cornet, NY Bach trombone 6vii Monette mouthpieces

beppe

Oh..what an interesting discussion...

It's clear that anyone has his prsonal feelings and opinions about this topic..
What I've noticed playing with a lot of players is that there are a few players that cannot use normal lightweight instruments because their sounds becomes too open when they play forte or fortissimo.. and on conventional instruments also their piano sounds are too bright..

And after I've read Monette's teories, I noticied that these players are the players that have the "more open" approach to the trumpet.

For example, I've the possibility to play with a young boy that has an incredible beautiful, clear sound, almost like Maurice Andre's ones..and I thought: "It's his instrument"(a yamaha Xeno..). So I've tried to play his instruments, and..my God(!!), in my hands it sounded like a fluegel..dark and dark,with a lot of resistance..!! Why?? Because he has, unconsciousness, an open way of playing.. and I've not..!!

rowuk

Lets get some real data here. Where are the technical freaks? I have a Macintosh G4, some good condenser mics and various weight instruments. There has to be some standard software (freeware?) out there that will clearly display the overtone spectrum. Let's keep it as simple as possible: spectrum of low C middle C, high C. Anybody have any suggestions? Although nothing musical will come out of it, the results should be comparable to other players - even with other microphone setups (yes, I think the heavytrumpetbashers should also contribute - they also have an overtone spectrum). Somebody out there can give us some tips on microphone distance (I think close is better because the high frequencies deteriorate the further you get away). Let's document microphone, instrument, mouthpiece and physical weight. Even although lip density, body mass, body alignment, playing habits -. even (l)attitude and altitude will make the results subjective, but maybe we will see a pattern between heavy and light that will bring some light onto this heavy subject..............

Monette Ajna2 B-flat(1998), Bach 37 B-Flat ML(1986), Arnolds pocket B-flat, Holton Clarke-Model long Cornet(1911), Bach 229C(1974) - no modifications, Selmer Radial 2 degrees D/E-flat(1973), various rotary valve instruments in low F(1910 - heavy), B-flat(1936 - heavy and 1938 - light), E-flat (late fifties - heavy), G(late 60s), High A/B-flat(20 year experimental - very light), long(light) and short (heavy) Baroque trumpets in B,C,C#,D,E-flat

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Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

camelbrass

rowuk...that's some arsenal!!

TM member Derek Rabean is probably your man. Derek has done some similar studies on the production of overtones from different players, I'm guessing that throwing the light/heavy argument in won't be whole a lot different.

My opinion? Well the more I play and the older I get the more I just stick the mouthpiece in the thin end and play. Provided it's in tune without having to struggle with it, it's all good.


Regards,


Trevor


Trevor (and the more I repeat myself)

rowuk

Hi Trevor,
I have just been collecting for years, the Monette is the only expensive horn that I have. Everything else has been just a couple of hundred dollars each (excepting the piccolo which probably never will be finished.....).
I practice the light/heavy issue just about every day and see a good reason for both. I have never wanted to "be the same as everybody else" just because it is easier to do so. I'll be the same if it is better. A heavy trumpet section to me is just more resonant, and I consider that to be an advantage for many types of music.
I have a good situation in Germany, where many colleagues also live the light/heavy and get the advantages of both sides. That is why I have trouble with one-sidedness. I can't even say what is easier light/heavy. It just depends what I am trying to get done and with whom. The most fun is having an open-minded section and getting the most out of each playing experience!
I'll be 50 this year, and it gets more fun every day. It is fantastic playing Mozarts Requiem or Bach on a natural trumpet - you can't get even close to that sound on a modern instrument. It is fun playing romantic works on the rotary F or B-flat trumpets - at least the instrument is correct in sound and character for that music, I do have trouble with period mouthpieces however............

Just for the record, I have only switched mouthpieces for my big horns once, from a Schilke 18 to a Monette B2. For the small horns, same situation Bach 10 1/2E to a Monette AP5. With my natural trumpet I play a Klier mouthpiece. Why Monette? Because it works for me and I have learned that a mouthpiece switch takes at least 6 months before I can say whether it was worth it or not. I have done it with enough of my students (no, they do not all play Monette mouthpieces) to see that the combination is too intimate. I prefer not to mess with a working system if I do not have to. When I bought the Ajna, I had to change as standard mouthpieces did not fit. I have never looked back. It worked from day one and after 6 months, after 8 years I was/am still happy!
You are right though, at the end of the day, it only counts what comes out front. A cracked note on a natural trumpet is every bit as annoying as on a modern trumpet. The audience notices that long before my resonance...........

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Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

Manny Laureano

I still insist that the only way to do a serious test of equipment is with the bloody Toyota trumpet-playing robot. It wouldn't get more controlled than that, I believe.

Could you imagine the ITG conference that could boast the "Ultimate Trumpet Brand Challenge" featuring the Toyota Robot?

ML