Magic Horns - Page 2

dcstep · 03-04-2004, 07:21 AM

We may sound the same on different horns but they DO NOT all feel and play the same. That's reason enough to by a fine horn. Get one that feels "right" to you. Trumpets and mpcs are cheap (my daughter's intermediate Yamaha flute cost more than my top-drawer trumpet/mpc combo). Why not play what you like?

Yeah, practice also, but don't let some old fart discourage you from buying a horn that you enjoy. If someone wants to play cheap, old, leaky horns, that's fine for them. If Mendez played a brand new, leaky horn, so what? That's what he wanted.

Dave

wiseone2 · 03-04-2004, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcstep

We may sound the same on different horns but they DO NOT all feel and play the same. That's reason enough to by a fine horn. Get one that feels "right" to you. Trumpets and mpcs are cheap (my daughter's intermediate Yamaha flute cost more than my top-drawer trumpet/mpc combo). Why not play what you like?

Yeah, practice also, but don't let some old fart discourage you from buying a horn that you enjoy. If someone wants to play cheap, old, leaky horns, that's fine for them. If Mendez played a brand new, leaky horn, so what? That's what he wanted.

Dave

Hmmmmmmmmm.........
Don't expect magic to occur because of the horn you are playing.
The same horn played by different people will sound different.
The player is more important than the equipment he is playing on.
I don't recall advocating the purchase of inferior instruments.
If you can play, a fine instrument is a tool take can make your performance a delight to all.
If you can't, the best, most expensive horn will do nothing for you.
Do you get that DC?

B15M · 03-04-2004, 08:32 AM

A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.

A good player can sound good on a bad horn but he will struggle

A magic horn will make it easier to play what you can already do

Graham Altham-Lewis · 03-04-2004, 08:51 AM

Hi folks! An interesting thread and I'll throw my opinion in too!

I think it depends on the trumpeter and roughly lets split it into two kinds.

I think a great player ( a pro for example) will sound great despite the horn because if they are great they can make a student Yamaha sound better than I could ever play on any trumpet. Maybe its easier for them on a better horn ( I don't know are there any pros out there who can let us know there opinion?) but they can still do it on a student model.

I think amateurs, which is myself and probably a lot of other folks on this site playing trumpet for fun, sound a lot better on a better instrument as we don't have to fight the instrument and it helps us realise our potential and the horn is not holding us back. I have experienced this personally when I upgraded my student model BachTR300 to a Yamaha 6335HS2. I could play technical exercises that I couldn't do before and my tone was much better. I have recently seen it to a lesser extent with my new Schilke B1.

A student of mine has just bought a Yamaha 6335S and his sound hugely improved compared to his old student model Boosey and Hawkes. His mother even came up to me at parents evening and said she could tell he sounds a lot better on his new horn.

So I think yes its the player but if you're not a pro you'll be able to do things on a better trumpet you couldn't do on a student model even though a pro can make a student model sound great (because the player is great).

By the way my step father was a very good driver and when I was following him on a twisty road he knew well one day in a sports car I had to work really quite hard to keep up with him.... and he was driving a 2CV!!!!!!!

Happy playing everyone!

Graham.

dcstep · 03-04-2004, 09:22 AM

Graham is right on. Poor horn/player matches and poor horns (leaky and/or with bad intonation) rob the player of energy. An excellent horn can be "magic" for a player, suddenly giving he or she better tone, range, endurance and dynamics.

A great player can "make" any horn "work", but it takes more energy than when the horn matches the player and also has good register-to-register balance and intonation. Call it what you want, but when I pick up a horn that sounds big and dynamic, gives me great feedback, plays in tune, projects well and is a pleasure to see and hold, that's "magic."

Dave

Tootsall · 03-04-2004, 09:34 AM

Graham, I wonder how many folks here know exactly what a "Deux Cheveaux" is! :) (fondly remembering the 4 years as a kid that I lived in France).

(Hint: Do a google search for "Citroen")

rdt1959 · 03-04-2004, 09:45 AM

There is definitely a balanced to be acheived between horn and player. And of course that depends a lot on the level of the player too. A professional player is going to pay more attention to the fine characteristics of a horn than an amateur, just like a professional engineer will require a more powerful calculator than a person than operates a music store.

I will use myself as an example of what I mean.

Give me a Schilke, Wild Thing, Bach, and a Monette and I will suck on all of them. (note for those that don't know: I am a come back player, and have been playing for about 1 year). The horn is not going to make me hit a high e-flat (about the staff) consistently if my embroucher (sp?) an breathing technique is not right. So there would really be no sense in me spending big bucks on a better horn until my ability level increases.

However, recently I have been wondering if my current horn (a Benge 65B) is holding me back. I have been extremely happy with my horn over the last year. But as I work on my range and techique (two fo the goals I set for myself) this year, it seems to me that my horn gets increasinly harder to play the higher I go. The more I learn by reading threads like this one, the more I pay attention to how my horn plays. And it just seems that there is a big difference in the "free blowing" characteristics of my horn depending on where I am playing in the staff.

So I am really...REALLY...looking forward to getting my hands on the Wild Thing (see the Wild Thing Tour threads). I may well find out that my current horn IS holding me back. But that would not mean that I wouldn't have a lot of work to do even if I bought a professional grade horn!

I kind of rambled my way through that didn't I? Sorry about that. I hope some of it made sense.

dcstep · 03-04-2004, 10:11 AM

Ok D_i_c_k, I agree that you should try that WT, but don't expect "magic." I suspect it'll be even harder for you to go high on than your Benge and your endurance will likely suffer. I don't know the condition of your Benge, but other options to consider are the Bach 180/37, Stomvi USA, Kanstul 1500s, Yamaha 6310Z or 8335, Schilke B6, Conn V1, Getzen, Selmer, etc., etc.

If you play a trumpet and it makes things easier for you, buy it! Doesn't matter if it's a WT or a Kanstul "student" horn. Of course, you should compare several, just in case ANY horn is "better" than you Benge.

Happy hunting,

Dave

wiseone2 · 03-04-2004, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdt1959

There is definitely a balanced to be acheived between horn and player. And of course that depends a lot on the level of the player too. A professional player is going to pay more attention to the fine characteristics of a horn than an amateur, just like a professional engineer will require a more powerful calculator than a person than operates a music store.

I will use myself as an example of what I mean.

Give me a Schilke, Wild Thing, Bach, and a Monette and I will suck on all of them. (note for those that don't know: I am a come back player, and have been playing for about 1 year).

I must ask.
Are you studying with a teacher?
What is your level of playing? Can you play the Arban Charecteristic Studies? Have you a range that extends from low f# to the c above the staff?
Are you playing in any ensembles?
I ask these questions because I believe that you must have the mechanics down before you can begin to experience the music.
Learn all your scales. Learn to play simple melodies. Work on tonguing and phrasing.
Basics. Basics. Basics. You are the magic, not the horn.

Wilmer

chetbaker · 03-04-2004, 11:03 AM

FWIW...and not to be redundant...I agree with Wilmer AND Dave!
I think what Wilmer is saying is...NO horn will make a difference in your playing (i.e., "magical improvementmagical horn) if the player hasn't reached a certain "skill level" to begin with. A skilled player such as Freddy Hubbard (who is obviously VERY skilled!) would sound good (or like himself) on ANY given horn...student to pro model. While with Joe Blow (who never practices and has a VERY low skill level) ...it wouldn't make a difference what horn he put to his face...he'd still suck (for lack of a better term)!

I think Dave simply took this topic to the next level by adding that Freddie Hubbard may sound like himself on ANY horn he picks up...but behind the horn...to him...he probably doesn't "feel" comfortable on some of them...so he prefers to choose X, Y, or Z to perform on because, TO HIM, that brand/model suits him the best. Again...he still sounds like Freddie...and that's a GOOD thing!

I've enjoyed reading everyone's posts on this thread!

Butch

03-04-2004, 07:21 AM	#11 (permalink)
dcstep Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Denver Posts: 680	We may sound the same on different horns but they DO NOT all feel and play the same. That's reason enough to by a fine horn. Get one that feels "right" to you. Trumpets and mpcs are cheap (my daughter's intermediate Yamaha flute cost more than my top-drawer trumpet/mpc combo). Why not play what you like? Yeah, practice also, but don't let some old fart discourage you from buying a horn that you enjoy. If someone wants to play cheap, old, leaky horns, that's fine for them. If Mendez played a brand new, leaky horn, so what? That's what he wanted. Dave __________________ Schilke '60 B1 Selmer Paris -- '57 #20 K-Modified/ '03 Concept TT w/ GR66.8B2.8 '94 Lawler TL cornet w/ Sparx 2B Conn Vintage One flugel - GR66FD www.pitpops.com www.ucm-inc.com Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

03-04-2004, 08:51 AM	#14 (permalink)
Graham Altham-Lewis New Friend Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 15	Hi folks! An interesting thread and I'll throw my opinion in too! I think it depends on the trumpeter and roughly lets split it into two kinds. I think a great player ( a pro for example) will sound great despite the horn because if they are great they can make a student Yamaha sound better than I could ever play on any trumpet. Maybe its easier for them on a better horn ( I don't know are there any pros out there who can let us know there opinion?) but they can still do it on a student model. I think amateurs, which is myself and probably a lot of other folks on this site playing trumpet for fun, sound a lot better on a better instrument as we don't have to fight the instrument and it helps us realise our potential and the horn is not holding us back. I have experienced this personally when I upgraded my student model BachTR300 to a Yamaha 6335HS2. I could play technical exercises that I couldn't do before and my tone was much better. I have recently seen it to a lesser extent with my new Schilke B1. A student of mine has just bought a Yamaha 6335S and his sound hugely improved compared to his old student model Boosey and Hawkes. His mother even came up to me at parents evening and said she could tell he sounds a lot better on his new horn. So I think yes its the player but if you're not a pro you'll be able to do things on a better trumpet you couldn't do on a student model even though a pro can make a student model sound great (because the player is great). By the way my step father was a very good driver and when I was following him on a twisty road he knew well one day in a sports car I had to work really quite hard to keep up with him.... and he was driving a 2CV!!!!!!! Happy playing everyone! Graham. __________________ Schilke B1 Yamaha 6335HS2 GR 3M

03-04-2004, 09:22 AM	#15 (permalink)
dcstep Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Denver Posts: 680	Graham is right on. Poor horn/player matches and poor horns (leaky and/or with bad intonation) rob the player of energy. An excellent horn can be "magic" for a player, suddenly giving he or she better tone, range, endurance and dynamics. A great player can "make" any horn "work", but it takes more energy than when the horn matches the player and also has good register-to-register balance and intonation. Call it what you want, but when I pick up a horn that sounds big and dynamic, gives me great feedback, plays in tune, projects well and is a pleasure to see and hold, that's "magic." Dave __________________ Schilke '60 B1 Selmer Paris -- '57 #20 K-Modified/ '03 Concept TT w/ GR66.8B2.8 '94 Lawler TL cornet w/ Sparx 2B Conn Vintage One flugel - GR66FD www.pitpops.com www.ucm-inc.com Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

03-04-2004, 09:45 AM	#17 (permalink)
rdt1959 Pianissimo User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Georgia Posts: 183	There is definitely a balanced to be acheived between horn and player. And of course that depends a lot on the level of the player too. A professional player is going to pay more attention to the fine characteristics of a horn than an amateur, just like a professional engineer will require a more powerful calculator than a person than operates a music store. I will use myself as an example of what I mean. Give me a Schilke, Wild Thing, Bach, and a Monette and I will suck on all of them. (note for those that don't know: I am a come back player, and have been playing for about 1 year). The horn is not going to make me hit a high e-flat (about the staff) consistently if my embroucher (sp?) an breathing technique is not right. So there would really be no sense in me spending big bucks on a better horn until my ability level increases. However, recently I have been wondering if my current horn (a Benge 65B) is holding me back. I have been extremely happy with my horn over the last year. But as I work on my range and techique (two fo the goals I set for myself) this year, it seems to me that my horn gets increasinly harder to play the higher I go. The more I learn by reading threads like this one, the more I pay attention to how my horn plays. And it just seems that there is a big difference in the "free blowing" characteristics of my horn depending on where I am playing in the staff. So I am really...REALLY...looking forward to getting my hands on the Wild Thing (see the Wild Thing Tour threads). I may well find out that my current horn IS holding me back. But that would not mean that I wouldn't have a lot of work to do even if I bought a professional grade horn! I kind of rambled my way through that didn't I? Sorry about that. I hope some of it made sense. __________________ Dick Taylor Georgia Comeback Player Benge 65B

03-04-2004, 10:11 AM	#18 (permalink)
dcstep Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Denver Posts: 680	Ok D_i_c_k, I agree that you should try that WT, but don't expect "magic." I suspect it'll be even harder for you to go high on than your Benge and your endurance will likely suffer. I don't know the condition of your Benge, but other options to consider are the Bach 180/37, Stomvi USA, Kanstul 1500s, Yamaha 6310Z or 8335, Schilke B6, Conn V1, Getzen, Selmer, etc., etc. If you play a trumpet and it makes things easier for you, buy it! Doesn't matter if it's a WT or a Kanstul "student" horn. Of course, you should compare several, just in case ANY horn is "better" than you Benge. Happy hunting, Dave __________________ Schilke '60 B1 Selmer Paris -- '57 #20 K-Modified/ '03 Concept TT w/ GR66.8B2.8 '94 Lawler TL cornet w/ Sparx 2B Conn Vintage One flugel - GR66FD www.pitpops.com www.ucm-inc.com Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

03-04-2004, 08:32 AM	#13 (permalink)
B15M Forte User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Monroe Ct. Posts: 1,285	A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. A good player can sound good on a bad horn but he will struggle A magic horn will make it easier to play what you can already do

03-04-2004, 09:34 AM	#16 (permalink)
Tootsall Fortissimo User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Yee HAW! Posts: 4,641	Graham, I wonder how many folks here know exactly what a "Deux Cheveaux" is! :) (fondly remembering the 4 years as a kid that I lived in France). (Hint: Do a google search for "Citroen")

03-04-2004, 11:03 AM	#20 (permalink)
chetbaker Pianissimo User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: GEORGIA Posts: 138	Magic Horns FWIW...and not to be redundant...I agree with Wilmer AND Dave! I think what Wilmer is saying is...NO horn will make a difference in your playing (i.e., "magical improvementmagical horn) if the player hasn't reached a certain "skill level" to begin with. A skilled player such as Freddy Hubbard (who is obviously VERY skilled!) would sound good (or like himself) on ANY given horn...student to pro model. While with Joe Blow (who never practices and has a VERY low skill level) ...it wouldn't make a difference what horn he put to his face...he'd still suck (for lack of a better term)! I think Dave simply took this topic to the next level by adding that Freddie Hubbard may sound like himself on ANY horn he picks up...but behind the horn...to him...he probably doesn't "feel" comfortable on some of them...so he prefers to choose X, Y, or Z to perform on because, TO HIM, that brand/model suits him the best. Again...he still sounds like Freddie...and that's a GOOD thing! I've enjoyed reading everyone's posts on this thread! Butch __________________ Kanstul Mariachi Premier Kanstul 1525 Flugelhorn Pieces - Warb. 6ESV top/Black #3 BB - Warb. 6FLM

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