Danbassin

Robin,

Thanks for the post - I've always enjoyed reading your responses here on TM! My question for you - have you ever played any of the 'smaller' belled Monette instruments? I'm curious, especially given your familiarity with elements of instrument building, physics, and acoustics, of your impression of the advantages and possible drawbacks in having owned and played two larger-belled Monettes. Granted, the American Standard Bach '37' '229', etc, 4 3/4" bell is far from an international standard [and I've recently been very interested in the differences between 'Prussian' and 'Viennese' rotaries - both of which tend to have larger bell flares than Bachs] but when I put in the order for my recent Prana instruments, I had to do some soul searching and came to the conclusion that whereas I love the playing characteristics of Dave's larger instruments, the 'smaller' belled instruments would be more versatile for the playing situations I currently find myself in.

Also, and forgive me if this question came up before - what prompted you to replace your former Bb with a newer Bb? - Have you ever had the interest in buying/playing a Monette C?

All the best,

-db

rowuk

Dan,
I have played several non "large-belled" Monette instruments. The smaller belled instruments do not have the "density" of sound and therefore make life easier in sections with "standard" instruments. I am in the lucky position of having a few colleagues with Monette large belled instruments, so "density" is not often an issue. I work with many of the other players that play second with me and we have always been able to work the section sound out without trouble.

My choice of the P3 is based on what I do with a piston Bb. I have a pretty big spread of instruments to fit in just about every type of ensemble. The large belled Monette adds a particular palette of colors that augments the rest. The Ajna2 was not the best horn for lead trumpet that I have ever played although it worked fine. I miss it every once in a while although I would not trade the P3 for it, I would need both......... In my whole playing career, only one player had grief with the Monette (he played a mod 43 ML Bach with a fairly small mouthpiece and did not practice a whole lot). His sound was simply too thin and he had trouble hearing himself. The effect is called masking and is the reason that MP3s are possible. Some sounds cover up other ones!

In Germany, the C trumpet is not the issue that it is in the states. I play most of my symphony stuff on the Monette or my 1938 Heckel rotary Bb (prussian by your definition). Actually there are 4 schools of rotary horns: North German (Thein), Cologne (Monke), Leipzig (Heckel, Kühn) and Vienna (Lechner and Schagerl). Of course there are other manufacturers, but they generally fall into one of those categories. I have played a couple of Monette Cs (a model out of the 900 series was the finest that I have EVER played) and would buy one if I really had use for it. A flumpet will come first though! I do still have a Bach 229H for that "standard" palette. It may get 20 hours of play a year.................

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Pedal C

I've been meaning to get around to this thread, but it's been so nice out! Golf has taken up my TM time, I guess...

Anyway, I have two Monette horns. A 937 Bb that I got used and a Prana 1 C I got new from the shop.

The Bb is quite heavy, but is still very versitile for me. I have three mouthpieces (1-2, 4LD, BL) that all have different sounds, so it's good horn for lots of different situations. It's also silver plated (done by the pervious owner), so it fits in visually as well, which is nice. The intonation is very good and the notes are very locked in and stable. The only issue I've ever had is that the sound projects really well and if I'm not careful, I can overplay without realizing it. Once I figured that out, life got a lot easier!

The C is a very different horn. I really only use one mouthpiece on it (1-2), but even so, I feel like I have a wide range of colors in the sound. This one took me longer to get used to. The intonation is excellent, but compared to the heavier Bb, the notes aren't as locked in. The is actually very nice when you need to adjust a pitch for whatever reason (sharp first trumpet, etc...), but for me it makes the horn seem a little less forgiving if I'm a little out of sync or not breathing. It's a great horn, it just took a little longer to feel comfortable on.

The biggest difference between the two is that the Bb is still ok to play in small rooms and places with bad acoustics, but the Prana C feels weird in practice rooms and places like that. I feel like my sound is really unfocused and I tend to force it a little to try to clear it up. After I got used to it and stopped trying to force the sound to be clear in little rooms, practing got easier.

I've tried a couple of the older Chicago style horns and they've all been very nice. Very stable. For me, the sound was less variable and more locked in. They are more forgiving though.

Actually I've enjoyed every Monette horn I've tried with the exception of a 2000LT (I think) C. For some reason, my sound was very brittle on that horn. I played it at the Monette shop and Dave listened to me play it for a couple minutes and just said, "That's not the horn for you." My teacher was there too and we all agreed. I don't know why that one didn't work, but the Prana 1 was a whole different animal and a much better fit for me.

So there's my arsenal...I think I put pictures in the "Pictures of my horn" thread.

Jason.

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godchaser

.

Jason, do you happen to recall what the previous owner of your 937 said about the sound-differences polished-plating made? Dave's build philosophy doesn't lend itself to this, for the majority of his work. -The prep sanding, thins the material, and voids the sound-benefits derived from the imperfections of the material? I appreciate the thinking, and wouldn't argue it necessarily, but i wonder if such attention holds recognizable sound-variance? Maybe Dan, or others have played Dave's horns prior to a polished-plating and after, or heard feedback to this?

Many thanks-


Chris

rowuk

The only people that play the exact same Monettes before and after plating are the guys at the shop. Because each instrument is "created" for a specific player, the playing characteristics are also somewhat individual. This is not a mass produced horn where it should be expected that all like models are identical.

I did play various instruments during my visits to Portland, and found no appreciable difference in sound or playability based on plating. Dave claims that prepping a horn for plating and insuring that the playing characteristics are preserved is a lot of work. Both of my horns were/are gold. I did this because I do not like green hands.

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godchaser

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'The only people that play the exact same Monettes before and after plating are the guys at the shop.'


Possibly i'm mistaken Robin. I figured that the 937 Jason's playing wasn't plated when built at the factory?


'I did play various instruments during my visits to Portland, and found no appreciable difference in sound or playability based on plating. Dave claims that prepping a horn for plating and insuring that the playing characteristics are preserved is a lot of work. Both of my horns were/are gold. I did this because I do not like green hands.'


If i'm hearing you right, a prep-process of plating is no different for a horn that's finished in a high shine or brushed, given there's no apparent or appreciable differences of sound? To that, there's only a minority of Monette models that are only offered in raw brass? My specific interest being that if a customer wanted a horn in polished gold plate, and the prep's the same, and sounds the same in brushed gold or polished, (possibly Jason, or others can speak to this before/after comparison) -thereby no issues of sound-integrity loss to shine it up. -Why not permit the customer the option of polished gold plating along side the brushed?

It was told to me more than a few different ways, given i'm so hard headed, and it didn't ever add up right what i was hearing. That there are.. sound issues to be considered when plating, given the sanding, smoothing of the horn's material-imperfections. And by consequence, the material becoming thinner as well, which was of particular concern at the bends of the horn. -That 'playing characteristics' and sound that was brought about by this imperfection would be compromised for high shine "aesthetic appeal". And Dave just wasn't gonna do it.

No problem here, and i'm not suggesting that i was deliberatly mislead. Likely, there's far less sanding/prep work needed for a brushed gold finish, so a lot of work' must be that of a lot of post plate tweaking to compensate/integrate the plating? Which brings me back-round again to whether there's 'appreciable' sound to be gained by maintaining fine material imperfection, and was it noticably lost after polished plating? I don't have any concerns of a Monette horn losing value by way of non-factory polished gold plating, but i wouldn't want to disrupt its sound.

-

rowuk

Chris, Monette does give the customer the choice. Only with the Ajna are you locked into gold. Go to this link and click on the comparison:
Monette Instruments. Some instruments have 3 finish options, some only 2.
A gold plated Monette is first copper plated, then silver plated and finally gold plated.
I am sure that the prepping is different for an "unfinished" horn than for a brushed gold finish. What material is buffed away, when, - is Daves' secret. The raw brass horns are polished smooth, the plated ones have that brushed finish so I am not sure if they buff it smooth and THEN brush it, or brush it instead of polishing it. It really makes no difference. All of the horns are adjusted by Monette before and after plating, so the quality control will make sure that the playing characteristics are perfect. When you buy a horn from Monette, you know what you are getting into - a horn that satisfies HIS expectations. I know based on my communication with the whole team, that their advice is worth listening to.

I do not know of them ever plating a horn after it has been sold. I suspect this would not give the same results as planning from the beginning.

With this company, you are buying into a concept where there is no need to second guess. They have their processes under control. You can be sure that the instrument that you get is the culmination of everything that he has learned. the market respects that approach with the highest resale prices. Even after 10 years, there is very little depreciation on a well kept horn.

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B15M

I was told that plating to a shiny finish would harden the brass or cause stress and take out the lower overtones. That's why the lighter horns can be silver, they are already bright.

They told me that to pollish silver or gold you have to lean on the wheel realy pushing on the horn.

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godchaser

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'Chris, Monette does give the customer the choice. Only with the Ajna are you locked into gold. Go to this link and click on the comparison:'

Just so Robin. And i do want gold, but polished not brushed. The confusion's my fault. I described a brushed gold finish as 'raw' earlier. I'll go back and edit it. -I'm still confused though. :)

Thanks BM.

Apologies Dan- didn't mean to burden the thread here.


-

Danbassin

Chris,

No burden at all - it's great to have this conversation going! As I said above, my Prana LTJ Bb is the first Monette instrument that was made for me, and, therefore, the first that I've had the privilege of being 'in the middle of' from the very beginnings. This included a trip to the shop, numerous phone consultations, sampling additional mouthpiece options, and even a phone call right before they were about to make the valves - to re-confirm that this was the 'right' weight horn for me (I had been familiar with heavier equipment before). This horn was gold-brushed. The horns I'd previously owned were an STC-4 C trumpet (which was raw brass), and an MC-96 C (which was an early example of a silver-plated Monette). I knew of a few 'satin silver' Monette trumpets, and have played a few notes on an earlier STC-1 C, an STC-7, and an STC-4 all with the 'satin silver' finish - I can only speculate that this version of a silver finish was more in keeping with Dave's concerns described above by other contributors to this thread.

I have very strongly considered buying a second-hand Chicago-era Bb Cornet (this was the most incredible cornet I've ever played - though it was the only Monette cornet I've ever played), but was concerned by the fact that the previous owner 'after-market' silver plated the horn...The idea of interfering with Dave's designs just doesn't sit well with me. That said, I know that the shop needs to know before they start the process of actually making your horn whether or not it will be plated, so this is a consideration they're keeping with them during the whole build process. I decided to go with the gold finish for my LTJ, and a pre-Chistmas back-up at the platers caused me to have to wait a bit long for my horn than perhaps I was expecting, but I was very satisfied knowing that that instrument wouldn't leave the Monette shop without their customary absolute attention to detail and uncompromising quality control. And I know that my P-1 C trumpet has been back at the shop for about a week now, since returning from the platers - that they're making it play as well as it can eases any impatience I might have to get the horn in my hands (though it doesn't alter the excitement I have to start making music on it!).

The fact of the matter is that these are exceedingly well designed instruments, and that, for those who 'agree' with the concept and approach - as I'm sure 'Pedal C' can attest to this, given his 937 with after-market silver plating is still a gem - no matter what 'interference' [here plating, but that MC-96 I had for a time had an 'after-market' amado water key on the 3rd slide] previous owner's whims exerted on the horns, they still play better than most everything out there. Again - that cornet was really incredible, but I was just uncomfortable with that one detail. Perhaps I'll wait and buy a new one from the shop some day.

I hope this helps. Anybody else have experience with finding a Monette that had plating alterations, or any other 'modifications'?

Jimi - maybe you'd like to share your experience with the Bach/Monette instrument, its qualities and what Monette thinks about his earlier hybrid horns.

Best to you all!

-db