Open Letter To Thomas Inderbinen - Page 2

Claude Gnocchi · 10-08-2007, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rowuk

Claude,
you will find that beauty is in the ear and eye of the beholder. I do not think that it is Dave Monettes or Thomas Inderbinens goal to make people satisfied with 2K trumpets wet their pants. Just as it is not Ferraris goal to make a Porsche or Corvette driver wet theirs.

The customers that desire these horns (or automobiles) have motivations that many do not understand or even need to understand. Any attempt to try and "quantify" value is purely subjective. After 11 years of a Monette trumpet (in addition to 15 other instruments from other manufacturers), I bought a new one. I use this horn on about 1/4 of the gigs that I play.

I guess the bottom line as I see it: if you are happy with $2K horns, wonderful. You can save a lot of money, and your audience may not even notice. If you cannot justify spending more money, then don't. Do not assume that YOUR opinion is any more than that however. There are very good reasons that I have a Monette in my collection - be assured, I have found NOTHING at any price that does what it does (the same goes for selected other instruments/manufacturers too). At no time in my trumpet playing career did I ever need diapers.

Getting back to the automobiles, if you are very familiar with a Corvette or Porsche, the Ferrari will do NOTHING for you until you become familiar with its ideosyncracies. Once you feel "at home", you have a new perspective and that leads to enjoyment. It is the same with ANY hand made instrument. It takes a while to become accustomed and THEN you can start to take advantage of the differences.

The Nintendo generation "download the cheat for instant satisfaction" is a suitable attitude for high quality mass produced horns (but not the best or the most intelligent one). Like learning to appreciate great wines, time and patience are attributes that lead to heightened pleasure regardless of price.

Depending on the Monette instrument, I am surprised that you didn't have something bad to say about it. The playing characteristics are considerably different from most other horns and the first "attempts" usually result in intonation problems (always the same due to the compensation required with "standard" horns). Lack of this small detail is usually "proof" for me that there was no actual try out (basic Monette/$10K ? There is also a $4K discrepancy here)................

I played an Inderbinen Eb trumpet last year. It had a smallish bell and intonation normally associated to a Bb - almost perfect for E, Eb, D, or C#. The octaves were VERY in tune and I felt very "at home" with the first note. It was not a horn to blow walls down with, but perfect for chamber situations where a smaller horn offers a greater variety of color. The construction was swiss watchmaker quality!

As far as being available in the states, if Thomas is building all that he can anyway, why should he expand? He would then have to hire more people, change his method of manufacturing and quality control and would probably end up building a different horn. Dave Monette also "only" makes about 6 instruments a month. If you want one, you wait. If you can't wait you buy something else - no problem - except for the Nintendo generation that has not learned to wait.

Do not misunderstand me. Nirvana does not equal expensive horn. Nirvana is the heightened pleasure, the experience of the moment, very much possible with ANYTHING of quality - regardless of price. Appreciation does not start with the checkbook, it starts with an open mind looking for the positive points in any-one or any-thing. I can appreciate things that I can't afford and do not have to justify any differences, price or otherwise.

Claude: my suggestion: look for the POSITIVE in every experience that you have. Even if the price is more than you want/need to spend, EVERY high quality instrument has its own character. Find the essence of that and just maybe you will start to realize why that company/horn even exists. Every one of those artisan based operations has something special to OFFER even if we do not agree with the pricing policy. Nirvana is when we can capture that essence and offer our audience the heightened experience!

Well, Rowuk, I have to disagree with you on the Ferraris and Porsches AND Mercedez Benz - I tried out an E-class 500 two years ago, and...I DID wet my pants so I bought it. This is the car I currently have and I love it! Did I notice that it was INSTANTLY better than the Nissan Maxima I was driving? ABSOLUTELY!

As to trying a Monette, as best as I can recall, I tried the "basic" Monette about 10-12 years ago at Washington Music in Wheaton, MD. Their main trumpet guru; Roger Kiper, called me he had just received one in (Model?) and he wanted me to try it. At that time they were actually only $600,00.00 USD ( I guess the entry level model...?) I liked it very much, but I just did not think it was so much better than the other "factory" horns that were available.....

and in case you haven't read my bio, I am a full time Lawyer and make a lot of money, so, yes, I can afford it if I want it.....I just don't at the moment

Also, I don't knock anyone who wants to play a Monette or an Inderbinen or a Harrelson (of which I own two, by the way)...we each play what we like/want at the moment

Cheers

TrentAustin · 10-08-2007, 05:00 PM

I agree with Robin,

The reason I have a Monette in my collection is the fact that it simply outplays EVERYTHING else I have ever tried. There's something that makes the horn work better for me than anything else I've had.

It makes every aspect of my musical life easier. Lord knows I've tried everything out there.
-T

PS: I also own a very nice Sonare (B/S, Blackburn, custom modded) trumpet that plays better for me than anything in the below 3K price range. But one note on my Monette and I realize the difference of the two horns.

rowuk · 10-08-2007, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claude Gnocchi

Well, Rowuk, I have to disagree with you on the Ferraris and Porsches AND Mercedez Benz - I tried out an E-class 500 two years ago, and...I DID wet my pants so I bought it. This is the car I currently have and I love it! Did I notice that it was INSTANTLY better than the Nissan Maxima I was driving? ABSOLUTELY!

As to trying a Monette, as best as I can recall, I tried the "basic" Monette about 10-12 years ago at Washington Music in Wheaton, MD. Their main trumpet guru; Roger Kiper, called me he had just received one in (Model?) and he wanted me to try it. At that time they were actually only $600,00.00 USD ( I guess the entry level model...?) I liked it very much, but I just did not think it was so much better than the other "factory" horns that were available.....

and in case you haven't read my bio, I am a full time Lawyer and make a lot of money, so, yes, I can afford it if I want it.....I just don't at the moment

Also, I don't knock anyone who wants to play a Monette or an Inderbinen or a Harrelson (of which I own two, by the way)...we each play what we like/want at the moment

Cheers

Claude,
I don't need to make a playdoyer for Monette or any other specific manufacturer. They all have their customers with or without me.

My point was capturing the moment - regardless of the brand or price - you obviously missed something in Washington though. Someone in your position surely knows that a quick blow cannot tell the whole story. That is why I question your comment. At $6K for a Monette and $2K for a standard pro instrument, the difference is $4K not 10. Why the exaggeration - especially if you have so much money that it is not significant? Something doesn't fit here. It doesn't matter though. We all just try and get the job done the best we can, with whatever horn that we have been blessed with!

The fat check book never made anyone better - or worse. There are plenty of awesome musicians that can barely make ends meet and struggle to get school paid for. I didn't need to read your bio, your posts tell the whole story.

Veldkamp · 10-08-2007, 06:57 PM

If the difference between a 10K and a 2K instrument was so big, every serious player would be player the 10K horn. Obviously, not everyone is convinced he should play such an expensive trumpet.

Wayne Bergeron played in the Netherlands this weekend on the Trumpetparty. I never heard such a fat sound in my life. No kickses on the rehearsel, no kickses on the soundcheck the next day, and no kickses on the concert. He played his band pieces and Gonna Fly Now and MacArthur Park with a big shake on a b3...

And he's "just" playing a 2K Yamaha...

BTW, one of our new great jazztrumpetplayers (Rik Mol) just got a new Inderbinen Amerone 2 days ago. He sure sounded nice to, but a totally different sound off course (much darker).

Claude Gnocchi · 10-08-2007, 06:57 PM

Trent: So, which Monette do you recommend and what is the actual/current price? I heard your new tunes on your site and was amazed at how much better you sound......did NOT sound like that w/the Eclipse.....just MY opinion. And Rowuk, way BEFORE I became a lawyer, I was a professional musician too, so ,yes, I know what it is to be a working musician who can barely make ends meet...that is why I went to Law School, so I would not have to live that life.....sorry if that doesn't meet your approval...

JustinSmith · 10-08-2007, 08:27 PM

I remember in the early 90's seeing Thomas Inderbinen's Trumpets at the Charles Colin Brass festival for scholarships in NYC. Rayburn was the American dealer. I believe the Alpha trumpet was only about $1500 US dollars. A new Silver Bach Strad was going for around $1100.

They were great trumpets. I wish i had the bread then. Now they are about $4000- $5000. It doesn't help that the US dollar is pretty low in the European markets.

I have been in working in Europe all summer since May, getting paid in US dollars. It isn't getting any cheaper.

I would love to try another Thomas Inderbinen trumpet if i get the chance.

brassmojo · 03-28-2008, 11:25 PM

Greetings from California---
I just read your post. Wayne's new Yamahopper is a copy of his Kanstul---he uses the Kanstul in the studio---go figure.
I think I agree with you --- its not the Horn, it's the player. Some players comprise their inabilities by by a custom, flashy, boutique, no one can buy but the rich, type of horns.
Bernie Glow, the best trumpet sound God gave to man, played a Bach 72 light-weight---probably at the time he bought it cost $800 (US). All the old Maynard albums he used an old Martin Committee and Conn 38b.
Non one has come close to Bernie and Maynard yet, not even using $10K horns. By the way those old horns are still available.
Take care--
3C

Cameron · 03-29-2008, 04:24 AM

I would gladly play an Inderbinen any day. I've been to the Monette shop and I liked their horns a lot too. I am only a student now and I can't afford them though. I'm not complaining about the price though.

It's important to realize though that a trumpet is a personal thing. A horn that plays well is the priority, but those who are going to the custom makers are looking for something more. Of course, any great player will sound good on a stock horn. To me, my trumpet is an extension of my personality in a way, and spending thousands to get a personalized horn that reflects that (on top of being a well playing instrument) would be satisfying.

skip77 · 03-29-2008, 08:16 AM

This is a good discussion amid years of exchanges on the same points. It amazes me that even after hundreds or probably thousands of similar threads comparing top horns, that we can still enjoy the topic. For whatever reason(s), I'm in and find this thread, excellent! Maybe it is a little because of the good mix of people commenting. I have some questions.

I am not a professional or accomplished as everyone in this thread seems to be, so please pardon my low-end stupidity. I have researched trumpet design over the years, however, and feel that I have a basic concept of what matters. I am puzzled. Here is a list of trumpet design aspects that I feel are crucial:
1. materials (alloy)
2. tubing diameters/gauge/lengths
3. fit
4. solder alloy and joint quality
5. leadpipe/venturi funnel design
6. bell dimensions/flare
7. valve fit/tubing bore alignment/finish
8. overall interior finish (smooth vs rough areas messing up airstream)
9. mpc

Most bottom dwellers like myself are stimulated by the exterior of a horn but truth be told, and something I learned en passing from Andy Taylor, is that the inside is where the most important features are built into a horn. I mean, look at the cool, heavily reinforced and angular flugelhorn that Andy built - that things is beautiful and produces really nice tones - not because of the outside but the inside. Apparently, Andy paid appropriate attention to all the key areas - what a cool and nice guy he is, as well. Here I am a low end player and he was kind enough to exchange plenty of emails with me at one time. His approach is known to all of you I'm sure. Nothing I am writing here is from Andy so please don't attribute anything I state to him.

Interesting note that all the top makers are such good guys. I have enjoyed conversations with Dave Monette - why? Did I ask to talk with Dave Monette? Was I a big spending customer? No. I was only trying to order a custom mpc for my 1952 Olds Ambassador cornet (awesome horn). The conversation stretched over several calls and weeks. Dave Monette took a personal interest in this single mpc order and ended up on the phone with me, Skip Bertrand from little ol Delaware. He just wanted to be sure I had all the parameters right and knew what I was getting. What a guy! I've owned 2 Monette mpcs - end of story.

Jason Harrelson - same way. Was looking to have my Ambassador trumpet repaired, actually, but stepped up a notch to modify it at the same time. In the market for the modification and only in a freak exchange from an ebay listing, I ended up talking with Jason. Jason was so busy it was ridiculous, in the middle of relocating his home and shop, setting up at shows and trying to keep up with orders. I ended up getting the full modification to Muse, without finger rings, because I don't use them. Jason, without a word, because I had paid for all the finger rings and opted out of them, replaced the bell with a new, vintage Olds bell. Anyway, that's 3 big makers that took time to talk with little ol me... a low end amateur. Says a lot about them, doesn't it?

So I come to this question - given that appropriate alloys, gauges and diameters/lengths are used, given that inside solder joints are smooth, given the other basic parameters are adhered to in the trumpet build, how can these makers distinguish themselves? Why is a Monette horn better than a mass produced model, etc?

These guys are making some of the coolest, most interesting horns imaginable - I would love to get my hands of some of them! Yet, my hands are full enough with the Muse that Jason built for me. I don't see any debate about who buys this horn or that horn - we all need something in our hands that feels right, sounds right and inspires us to move on to the next note. Our pocketbook is a factor and beyond that, we all do the best we can with what we have - what's the debate?

rowuk · 03-29-2008, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skip77

..........
I am not a professional or accomplished as everyone in this thread seems to be, so please pardon my low-end stupidity. I have researched trumpet design over the years, however, and feel that I have a basic concept of what matters. I am puzzled. Here is a list of trumpet design aspects that I feel are crucial:
1. materials (alloy)
2. tubing diameters/gauge/lengths
3. fit
4. solder alloy and joint quality
5. leadpipe/venturi funnel design
6. bell dimensions/flare
7. valve fit/tubing bore alignment/finish
8. overall interior finish (smooth vs rough areas messing up airstream)
9. mpc

Skip,
great post! I'll disagree to your list of important stuff a little though. The trumpet builder has so many factors to juggle, that no single point is significant at all. It is the sum of the builders choice of parameters. Even although the ad people try and reduce bore size to size of sound, material to dark/light sound, leadpipe taper to playability, none of this is true. There are fat, dark sounding trumpets with medium bore and yellow brass bells and other ones to peel paint made with large bores and gold brass.
The most important factor to me is the designers choice, whatever that may be. They are paid to know better and I will never assume to be able to outguess them. There are so many myths about horns that just do not go away. There is also so much BS surrounding those myths.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skip77

.....

So I come to this question - given that appropriate alloys, gauges and diameters/lengths are used, given that inside solder joints are smooth, given the other basic parameters are adhered to in the trumpet build, how can these makers distinguish themselves? Why is a Monette horn better than a mass produced model, etc?

The Monette is probably a better "fit" for the original client than a mass market trumpet. Does that make it better? It depends on your point of view. Is a tailor-made overall better for a lumberjack? Can he get his work done better? Is a tailor made suit better for a school teacher? Is a custom bicycle better for a postal worker delivering mail?
Although the answers to the above are debatable, you may get my point. The suitability of ANY hardware depends on the situation AND the software between the ears. Obviously the "standard" horns (Yamaha/Bach) are "good enough" otherwise the pros would not use them. I know of no other high performance area where pros are happy with "standard" though. There is plenty of room for improvement on those standards, but not everyone is interested.

The original post was to Thomas Inderbinen, who is still alive and well. He showed 10 - 15 instruments at the Frankfurt music fair and they were all exceptional - in performance AND price. I believe he is selling all he can build - while maintaining his quality. It is unfortunate that he does not have demos in the states, but why should he make less money per instrument? he has no obligation to anyone except himself and his clients.

Travel is not "cheap" but the trip to visit him in Switzerland would be well worth it. René Spada and Egger would be two other visits on the same trip, not to mention beautiful Switzerland. After all, from the east coast, Zurich is not much further away than LA...................
The world is very small. Maybe that is the message developed in this thread!

10-08-2007, 05:00 PM	#12 (permalink)
TrentAustin Moderator Forte User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,599	Re: Open Letter To Thomas Inderbinen I agree with Robin, The reason I have a Monette in my collection is the fact that it simply outplays EVERYTHING else I have ever tried. There's something that makes the horn work better for me than anything else I've had. It makes every aspect of my musical life easier. Lord knows I've tried everything out there. -T PS: I also own a very nice Sonare (B/S, Blackburn, custom modded) trumpet that plays better for me than anything in the below 3K price range. But one note on my Monette and I realize the difference of the two horns. __________________ Trent Austin lurking around. If you want to chat PM me. http://www.trentaustin.com http://www.onlinejazzimprovisation.com Last edited by TrentAustin; 10-08-2007 at 05:18 PM.

10-08-2007, 06:57 PM	#14 (permalink)
Veldkamp Piano User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: the Netherlands Posts: 379	Re: Open Letter To Thomas Inderbinen If the difference between a 10K and a 2K instrument was so big, every serious player would be player the 10K horn. Obviously, not everyone is convinced he should play such an expensive trumpet. Wayne Bergeron played in the Netherlands this weekend on the Trumpetparty. I never heard such a fat sound in my life. No kickses on the rehearsel, no kickses on the soundcheck the next day, and no kickses on the concert. He played his band pieces and Gonna Fly Now and MacArthur Park with a big shake on a b3... And he's "just" playing a 2K Yamaha... BTW, one of our new great jazztrumpetplayers (Rik Mol) just got a new Inderbinen Amerone 2 days ago. He sure sounded nice to, but a totally different sound off course (much darker). __________________ www.erikveldkamp.com http://trumpetkings.blogspot.com

10-08-2007, 06:57 PM	#15 (permalink)
Claude Gnocchi Pianissimo User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Maryland Posts: 137	Re: Open Letter To Thomas Inderbinen Trent: So, which Monette do you recommend and what is the actual/current price? I heard your new tunes on your site and was amazed at how much better you sound......did NOT sound like that w/the Eclipse.....just MY opinion. And Rowuk, way BEFORE I became a lawyer, I was a professional musician too, so ,yes, I know what it is to be a working musician who can barely make ends meet...that is why I went to Law School, so I would not have to live that life.....sorry if that doesn't meet your approval...

10-08-2007, 08:27 PM	#16 (permalink)
JustinSmith Piano User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: NYC, in Europe for summer Posts: 254	Re: Open Letter To Thomas Inderbinen I remember in the early 90's seeing Thomas Inderbinen's Trumpets at the Charles Colin Brass festival for scholarships in NYC. Rayburn was the American dealer. I believe the Alpha trumpet was only about $1500 US dollars. A new Silver Bach Strad was going for around $1100. They were great trumpets. I wish i had the bread then. Now they are about $4000- $5000. It doesn't help that the US dollar is pretty low in the European markets. I have been in working in Europe all summer since May, getting paid in US dollars. It isn't getting any cheaper. I would love to try another Thomas Inderbinen trumpet if i get the chance. __________________ Justin J. Smith When people believe in boundaries, they become part of them.......Don Cherry Last edited by JustinSmith; 10-22-2007 at 11:08 AM.

03-28-2008, 11:25 PM	#17 (permalink)
brassmojo Pianissimo User Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 56	Re: Open Letter To Thomas Inderbinen Greetings from California--- I just read your post. Wayne's new Yamahopper is a copy of his Kanstul---he uses the Kanstul in the studio---go figure. I think I agree with you --- its not the Horn, it's the player. Some players comprise their inabilities by by a custom, flashy, boutique, no one can buy but the rich, type of horns. Bernie Glow, the best trumpet sound God gave to man, played a Bach 72 light-weight---probably at the time he bought it cost $800 (US). All the old Maynard albums he used an old Martin Committee and Conn 38b. Non one has come close to Bernie and Maynard yet, not even using $10K horns. By the way those old horns are still available. Take care-- 3C

03-29-2008, 04:24 AM	#18 (permalink)
Cameron New Friend Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 10	Re: Open Letter To Thomas Inderbinen I would gladly play an Inderbinen any day. I've been to the Monette shop and I liked their horns a lot too. I am only a student now and I can't afford them though. I'm not complaining about the price though. It's important to realize though that a trumpet is a personal thing. A horn that plays well is the priority, but those who are going to the custom makers are looking for something more. Of course, any great player will sound good on a stock horn. To me, my trumpet is an extension of my personality in a way, and spending thousands to get a personalized horn that reflects that (on top of being a well playing instrument) would be satisfying.

03-29-2008, 08:16 AM	#19 (permalink)
skip77 New Friend Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 11	Re: Open Letter To Thomas Inderbinen This is a good discussion amid years of exchanges on the same points. It amazes me that even after hundreds or probably thousands of similar threads comparing top horns, that we can still enjoy the topic. For whatever reason(s), I'm in and find this thread, excellent! Maybe it is a little because of the good mix of people commenting. I have some questions. I am not a professional or accomplished as everyone in this thread seems to be, so please pardon my low-end stupidity. I have researched trumpet design over the years, however, and feel that I have a basic concept of what matters. I am puzzled. Here is a list of trumpet design aspects that I feel are crucial: 1. materials (alloy) 2. tubing diameters/gauge/lengths 3. fit 4. solder alloy and joint quality 5. leadpipe/venturi funnel design 6. bell dimensions/flare 7. valve fit/tubing bore alignment/finish 8. overall interior finish (smooth vs rough areas messing up airstream) 9. mpc Most bottom dwellers like myself are stimulated by the exterior of a horn but truth be told, and something I learned en passing from Andy Taylor, is that the inside is where the most important features are built into a horn. I mean, look at the cool, heavily reinforced and angular flugelhorn that Andy built - that things is beautiful and produces really nice tones - not because of the outside but the inside. Apparently, Andy paid appropriate attention to all the key areas - what a cool and nice guy he is, as well. Here I am a low end player and he was kind enough to exchange plenty of emails with me at one time. His approach is known to all of you I'm sure. Nothing I am writing here is from Andy so please don't attribute anything I state to him. Interesting note that all the top makers are such good guys. I have enjoyed conversations with Dave Monette - why? Did I ask to talk with Dave Monette? Was I a big spending customer? No. I was only trying to order a custom mpc for my 1952 Olds Ambassador cornet (awesome horn). The conversation stretched over several calls and weeks. Dave Monette took a personal interest in this single mpc order and ended up on the phone with me, Skip Bertrand from little ol Delaware. He just wanted to be sure I had all the parameters right and knew what I was getting. What a guy! I've owned 2 Monette mpcs - end of story. Jason Harrelson - same way. Was looking to have my Ambassador trumpet repaired, actually, but stepped up a notch to modify it at the same time. In the market for the modification and only in a freak exchange from an ebay listing, I ended up talking with Jason. Jason was so busy it was ridiculous, in the middle of relocating his home and shop, setting up at shows and trying to keep up with orders. I ended up getting the full modification to Muse, without finger rings, because I don't use them. Jason, without a word, because I had paid for all the finger rings and opted out of them, replaced the bell with a new, vintage Olds bell. Anyway, that's 3 big makers that took time to talk with little ol me... a low end amateur. Says a lot about them, doesn't it? So I come to this question - given that appropriate alloys, gauges and diameters/lengths are used, given that inside solder joints are smooth, given the other basic parameters are adhered to in the trumpet build, how can these makers distinguish themselves? Why is a Monette horn better than a mass produced model, etc? These guys are making some of the coolest, most interesting horns imaginable - I would love to get my hands of some of them! Yet, my hands are full enough with the Muse that Jason built for me. I don't see any debate about who buys this horn or that horn - we all need something in our hands that feels right, sounds right and inspires us to move on to the next note. Our pocketbook is a factor and beyond that, we all do the best we can with what we have - what's the debate? __________________ 1960 Olds - Harrelson Muse Monette B6 - Harrelson Sleeve Last edited by skip77; 03-29-2008 at 08:28 AM.

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