Possible Strike at Vincent Bach!?!?!?! - Page 2

oldlou · 03-31-2006, 08:27 PM

I think that Siegtrpt has got a handle on what is actually happening at Elkhart. It is the same thing that happened soon after 1900 when many of the top musical instrument manufacturers decided to become importers/vendors. A short time spent on Ebay will show an abundance of imported junk, other than the stuff from India and China. There is simply a BUNCH of old Checoslovakian,( Bohemian ) made scrap plumbing on the market. Most of it totally worthless. This assortment of plumbers nightmares was brought to our shores to 'hopefully' bust the unions that represented the workers in domestic instrument makers plants. In many cases it worked,too. It put a bunch of fine old brands on the list of obsolete makers. The only good thing that I can see that it did was that it drove prices sky high on 'my' collectible horns. The same anomoly will probably occur with the market values of some of the horns made by the various Steinway owned companies. This will not help Steinway. It will hurt the buying public and the only ones to profit are those who already have these horns in their possesion.

Rgale · 03-31-2006, 08:59 PM

Perhaps we should write Steinway. I just did.
This is awful on so many levels. What a slap to the workers there and what a slap to the pro players who have played Bach trumpets over the years.
If they do this , I will not recommend that my students buy their instruments , and I imagine that most of the players here would do the same.

Scooter01 · 04-01-2006, 12:36 PM

Let's not blame the Chinese or any other foreign country. What it comes down to is GREED. Steinway wants to meet their profit projections and they are placing the burden on the worker and the blame overseas. There are foreign instruments in the US market and always have been (Besson, Couesnon etc.). It only becomes an issue when the competition is unfair. An example would be if an overseas manufacturer makes the same product of the same quality of a domestic product and dumps it on the market for less than a domestic company's cost. That is called "dumping" and is why we have import tariffs.

The fact that schools have lost most of their funding for new instruments may force them to abandon domestic brands and look to Jupiter or a similar brand to get the most for their money. This is most likely the market share that Conn-Selmer relied on. The only way to maintain that market (if it's really worth it anymore) is to produce a lower cost instrument.

In the old days a company would just look at the reality that a division is loosing money and close it or eliminate non-performers from their product line. Nowadays you just outsource it to China or India. A smaller Bach making good quality pro horns simply won't satisfy the greed of the Corporation that depends on share holder satisfaction and fat bonuses for its executives.

ADziuk · 04-01-2006, 12:42 PM

As crappy as it would be if this is the situation that caused it......

I would welcome Bach returning to smaller, higher priced hand crafted company. I would gladly pay more for a Bach trumpet if they were always available in high quality.

oldlou · 04-01-2006, 01:04 PM

As much as we the consumers might wish otherwise, the only reason that most commercial ventures are in business is TO MAKE MONEY. They don't really care about anything else. The only reason that most businessmen treat their customers well is to keep them happy enough to make good recommendations to other prospective customers and, perhaps to not make too many complaints. This is what is known as "Commercial Acceptability". The major concept of Commercial Acceptability is to make a product that is just good enough,( in it's price and feature range), to sell to a projected market without excessive customer complaints,( warranty claims ).

The days of a major stock owned company having any concern for it's blue collar workers is long gone. Most of our major business schools teach strongly against it. Their attitude about their customers is the same. They just don't care about them as long as the money keeps coming in. How else to keep the stockholders happy? The only reason that most CEO's keep their jobs and astronomic salaries,( with multi faceted and expensive perquisits ), is by showing a LARGE, BLACK bottom line on the annual financial statement. To do this they have to take the money away from the workers by outsourcing the jobs to nations where the workers are employed at horribly substandard wages and, with zero fringe benefits. This keeps the overhead down and jacks the profits up.

B15M · 04-01-2006, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldlou

As much as we the consumers might wish otherwise, the only reason that most commercial ventures are in business is TO MAKE MONEY. They don't really care about anything else. The only reason that most businessmen treat their customers well is to keep them happy enough to make good recommendations to other prospective customers and, perhaps to not make too many complaints. This is what is known as "Commercial Acceptability". The major concept of Commercial Acceptability is to make a product that is just good enough,( in it's price and feature range), to sell to a projected market without excessive customer complaints,( warranty claims ).

The days of a major stock owned company having any concern for it's blue collar workers is long gone. Most of our major business schools teach strongly against it. Their attitude about their customers is the same. They just don't care about them as long as the money keeps coming in. How else to keep the stockholders happy? The only reason that most CEO's keep their jobs and astronomic salaries,( with multi faceted and expensive perquisits ), is by showing a LARGE, BLACK bottom line on the annual financial statement. To do this they have to take the money away from the workers by outsourcing the jobs to nations where the workers are employed at horribly substandard wages and, with zero fringe benefits. This keeps the overhead down and jacks the profits up.

Some of what you say is true but not all. I think there is some pride taken in a product well made.When the symphony players play a concert do they just play well enough so the audience won't complain? The symphony guys are union. They usually have to fight for their pay. I think they put their heart into their performance. I don't think the workers at Bach want to hear what we say about inconsistencies in there product. There is a fine line between a good product and the price you can charge. The people at Bach understand the value of having the trumpets made in the USA.

The over seas factories really bother me. I know none here wants a trumpet made in china but how about a shirt? If the Chinese could make a good trumpet would you buy it? A lot of the overseas products are made there because they have to do it to compete. The people we need to be mad at is the first one that defected. The rest just fell in line. Personally I think this whole "one world economy" is a bunch of crap. If I were president there would be a huge import tax.

oldlou · 04-01-2006, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B15M

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldlou

As much as we the consumers might wish otherwise, the only reason that most commercial ventures are in business is TO MAKE MONEY. They don't really care about anything else. The only reason that most businessmen treat their customers well is to keep them happy enough to make good recommendations to other prospective customers and, perhaps to not make too many complaints. This is what is known as "Commercial Acceptability". The major concept of Commercial Acceptability is to make a product that is just good enough,( in it's price and feature range), to sell to a projected market without excessive customer complaints,( warranty claims ).

The days of a major stock owned company having any concern for it's blue collar workers is long gone. Most of our major business schools teach strongly against it. Their attitude about their customers is the same. They just don't care about them as long as the money keeps coming in. How else to keep the stockholders happy? The only reason that most CEO's keep their jobs and astronomic salaries,( with multi faceted and expensive perquisits ), is by showing a LARGE, BLACK bottom line on the annual financial statement. To do this they have to take the money away from the workers by outsourcing the jobs to nations where the workers are employed at horribly substandard wages and, with zero fringe benefits. This keeps the overhead down and jacks the profits up.

Some of what you say is true but not all. I think there is some pride taken in a product well made.When the symphony players play a concert do they just play well enough so the audience won't complain? The symphony guys are union. They usually have to fight for their pay. I think they put their heart into their performance. I don't think the workers at Bach want to hear what we say about inconsistencies in there product. There is a fine line between a good product and the price you can charge. The people at Bach understand the value of having the trumpets made in the USA.

The over seas factories really bother me. I know none here wants a trumpet made in china but how about a shirt? If the Chinese could make a good trumpet would you buy it? A lot of the overseas products are made there because they have to do it to compete. The people we need to be mad at is the first one that defected. The rest just fell in line. Personally I think this whole "one world economy" is a bunch of crap. If I were president there would be a huge import tax.

I said nothing derogatory about the union workers. My complaint is with the stockholders being willing to employ executives at unbelievably high wages and then, add on a laundry list of perquisits that are worth another sizeable fortune. This all taken from the wages and benefits of the workers, who are ongoingly having their contractually agreed upon wages, benefits and pensions taken from them. All of this while more and more production is being demanded of them. This is what drives down quality in manufacture.The entire current system makes me sick at my stomach.

B15M · 04-01-2006, 02:00 PM

I'm saying that not all companies are doing what you say.

I will use a company near me for an example.
Sikorsky aircraft is on strike now. The Union has everything they want with the exception of health care. The union wants the company to pay for all of their health care. It's ridiculous. Health care is out of control and the employees need to be realistic. It is easy for the company to outsource everything. They don't need the workers but they are trying to keep things going as they have been.

I remember Carpenter Steel. The steel business was all going over seas at that time so what did the employees do? They went on strike. The company closed.

Every story has two sides. There are going to be some major changes coming our way and we better stay open-minded or we will be in trouble. The car industry for one. Take a look at Coca Cola. I predict that will be the next big strike.

oldlou · 04-01-2006, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B15M

I'm saying that not all companies are doing what you say.

I will use a company near me for an example.
Sikorsky aircraft is on strike now. The Union has everything they want with the exception of health care. The union wants the company to pay for all of their health care. It's ridiculous. Health care is out of control and the employees need to be realistic.

The same argument has been posed by our local public school board per the health insurance cost and who should be paying for it. I know from first hand experience,( my wife recently retired from that school system), that the teachers and support staff have always been willing to forego pay increases to be assured that their health care program would stay intact. The school board has been very outspoken about how wonderful THEY were in keeping the benefits program in such good condition for many years. If the teachers and support staff had taken the offered pay increases over the years their pension plans would now be worth a GREAT DEAL more than they currently are. I, then, ask the question. Who actually paid for the health plan for so many years.

It is easy for the company to outsource everything. They don't need the workers but they are trying to keep things going as they have been.

I remember Carpenter Steel. The steel business was all going over seas at that time so what did the employees do? They went on strike. The company closed.

Every story has two sides. There are going to be some major changes coming our way and we better stay open-minded or we will be in trouble. The car industry for one. Take a look at Coca Cola. I predict that will be the next big strike.

On what do you base this statement per Coca Cola?

Rgale · 04-01-2006, 03:12 PM

Some important facts .

Vincent Bach IS making money. $111 million profit last year.

The Wall St. wizards who own the company are demanding a 40% pay cut for the workers or they will send the work to China.

The shareholders don't get that much more for this. The money will go to the greedy SOB's at the top, and everybody else be damned.

Who gains, other than the aforementioned greedy SOB's at the top?

The American workers are all looking for other jobs now.

Trumpet players will have no choice but to go elsewhere, if Strads are made in China. I have tried Chinese- made trumpets, and they are among the worst I have ever tried.

Bach will lose its good reputation. And much of its market share, unless they come to their senses .

I have personally worked at a trumpet factory, and it is hard work which deserves to be well paid.( And was not , BTW.) I think they make good wages at Bach; but they should, if we want good trumpets.

03-31-2006, 08:27 PM	#11 (permalink)
oldlou Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Grand Rapids, Mi. Posts: 658	Bach strike I think that Siegtrpt has got a handle on what is actually happening at Elkhart. It is the same thing that happened soon after 1900 when many of the top musical instrument manufacturers decided to become importers/vendors. A short time spent on Ebay will show an abundance of imported junk, other than the stuff from India and China. There is simply a BUNCH of old Checoslovakian,( Bohemian ) made scrap plumbing on the market. Most of it totally worthless. This assortment of plumbers nightmares was brought to our shores to 'hopefully' bust the unions that represented the workers in domestic instrument makers plants. In many cases it worked,too. It put a bunch of fine old brands on the list of obsolete makers. The only good thing that I can see that it did was that it drove prices sky high on 'my' collectible horns. The same anomoly will probably occur with the market values of some of the horns made by the various Steinway owned companies. This will not help Steinway. It will hurt the buying public and the only ones to profit are those who already have these horns in their possesion. __________________ Couturier trumpet York Master Model trumpet York Elite trumpet York Airflow cornet King super 20 Master Model cornet King Liberty trumpet Reynolds Professional cornet Bohm & Meinl professional trumpet Besson 10-10 trumpet with Holton M.F. bell Olds Special cornet Los Angeles B&H Sovereign cornet G.R.Band Instr. cornet Getzen Super Deluxe trumpet and cornet Getzen Deluxe trumpet and cornet Many others no room to list

03-31-2006, 08:59 PM	#12 (permalink)
Rgale Mezzo Forte User Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 856	Perhaps we should write Steinway. I just did. This is awful on so many levels. What a slap to the workers there and what a slap to the pro players who have played Bach trumpets over the years. If they do this , I will not recommend that my students buy their instruments , and I imagine that most of the players here would do the same. __________________ Listen to your inner voice before it says ,"I told you so".

04-01-2006, 12:42 PM	#14 (permalink)
ADziuk New Friend Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Bloomington, IN or Twin Cities, MN Posts: 28	As crappy as it would be if this is the situation that caused it...... I would welcome Bach returning to smaller, higher priced hand crafted company. I would gladly pay more for a Bach trumpet if they were always available in high quality. __________________ "Everyone should carefully observe which way his heart draws him, and then choose that way with all his strength."

04-01-2006, 01:04 PM	#15 (permalink)
oldlou Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Grand Rapids, Mi. Posts: 658	Strike As much as we the consumers might wish otherwise, the only reason that most commercial ventures are in business is TO MAKE MONEY. They don't really care about anything else. The only reason that most businessmen treat their customers well is to keep them happy enough to make good recommendations to other prospective customers and, perhaps to not make too many complaints. This is what is known as "Commercial Acceptability". The major concept of Commercial Acceptability is to make a product that is just good enough,( in it's price and feature range), to sell to a projected market without excessive customer complaints,( warranty claims ). The days of a major stock owned company having any concern for it's blue collar workers is long gone. Most of our major business schools teach strongly against it. Their attitude about their customers is the same. They just don't care about them as long as the money keeps coming in. How else to keep the stockholders happy? The only reason that most CEO's keep their jobs and astronomic salaries,( with multi faceted and expensive perquisits ), is by showing a LARGE, BLACK bottom line on the annual financial statement. To do this they have to take the money away from the workers by outsourcing the jobs to nations where the workers are employed at horribly substandard wages and, with zero fringe benefits. This keeps the overhead down and jacks the profits up. __________________ Couturier trumpet York Master Model trumpet York Elite trumpet York Airflow cornet King super 20 Master Model cornet King Liberty trumpet Reynolds Professional cornet Bohm & Meinl professional trumpet Besson 10-10 trumpet with Holton M.F. bell Olds Special cornet Los Angeles B&H Sovereign cornet G.R.Band Instr. cornet Getzen Super Deluxe trumpet and cornet Getzen Deluxe trumpet and cornet Many others no room to list

04-01-2006, 03:12 PM	#20 (permalink)
Rgale Mezzo Forte User Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 856	Some important facts . Vincent Bach IS making money. $111 million profit last year. The Wall St. wizards who own the company are demanding a 40% pay cut for the workers or they will send the work to China. The shareholders don't get that much more for this. The money will go to the greedy SOB's at the top, and everybody else be damned. Who gains, other than the aforementioned greedy SOB's at the top? The American workers are all looking for other jobs now. Trumpet players will have no choice but to go elsewhere, if Strads are made in China. I have tried Chinese- made trumpets, and they are among the worst I have ever tried. Bach will lose its good reputation. And much of its market share, unless they come to their senses . I have personally worked at a trumpet factory, and it is hard work which deserves to be well paid.( And was not , BTW.) I think they make good wages at Bach; but they should, if we want good trumpets. __________________ Listen to your inner voice before it says ,"I told you so".

04-01-2006, 12:36 PM	#13 (permalink)
Scooter01 New Friend Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 48	Let's not blame the Chinese or any other foreign country. What it comes down to is GREED. Steinway wants to meet their profit projections and they are placing the burden on the worker and the blame overseas. There are foreign instruments in the US market and always have been (Besson, Couesnon etc.). It only becomes an issue when the competition is unfair. An example would be if an overseas manufacturer makes the same product of the same quality of a domestic product and dumps it on the market for less than a domestic company's cost. That is called "dumping" and is why we have import tariffs. The fact that schools have lost most of their funding for new instruments may force them to abandon domestic brands and look to Jupiter or a similar brand to get the most for their money. This is most likely the market share that Conn-Selmer relied on. The only way to maintain that market (if it's really worth it anymore) is to produce a lower cost instrument. In the old days a company would just look at the reality that a division is loosing money and close it or eliminate non-performers from their product line. Nowadays you just outsource it to China or India. A smaller Bach making good quality pro horns simply won't satisfy the greed of the Corporation that depends on share holder satisfaction and fat bonuses for its executives.

04-01-2006, 02:00 PM	#18 (permalink)
B15M Forte User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Monroe Ct. Posts: 1,282	I'm saying that not all companies are doing what you say. I will use a company near me for an example. Sikorsky aircraft is on strike now. The Union has everything they want with the exception of health care. The union wants the company to pay for all of their health care. It's ridiculous. Health care is out of control and the employees need to be realistic. It is easy for the company to outsource everything. They don't need the workers but they are trying to keep things going as they have been. I remember Carpenter Steel. The steel business was all going over seas at that time so what did the employees do? They went on strike. The company closed. Every story has two sides. There are going to be some major changes coming our way and we better stay open-minded or we will be in trouble. The car industry for one. Take a look at Coca Cola. I predict that will be the next big strike.

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