Veldkamp

If the horn sounds good and plays well, I don't care who made it.But if you like artwork you should try a Inderbinen Inox or Da Vinci...

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Liad Bar-EL

As the saying goes, only a true artist can grasp the artwork of another; only the palate of a food connoisseur can fully appreciate an exquisite dish. I am not here to tell you that what is in my heart is what should be in yours. The wise King Solomon stated once that "As in water face is to face, so is the heart of man to man."(Proverbs 27:19) The Targum says: "Even as faces are not alike, so people's hearts are not alike." In other words, what you find in that horn reflects what you have in yourself and it feels part of you but maybe I don't have it in me but rather something else.

Looks of a horn is not my main point here in this thread but rather its "artist soul" and the inspiration it gives.

Hope you enjoy your horn as much as I enjoy mine.

Liad Bar-EL

Veldkamp

It sounds like you like your horn more than I like my horn....

But I'm glad I'm playing mine, I'm not a fan of 2 piece bells. The sound of a well build 1 piece bell is more "alive" in my ears. But a lot of players on this forum may not agree...

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Liad Bar-EL

There are too many variables there Veldkamp when you say, "The sound of a well build 1 piece bell is more 'alive' in my ears." For this to be a valid test, both horns would have to be from the same maker but each having the different bells.

In fact this subject just "rang a bell" in my memory banks. Taylor started out many years ago making only bells and he is still making many different kinds of bells for all kinds of instruments for many different companies all over the world. It may be that your favorite trumpet, French horn, etc, etc, etc, just may have a bell made by him on it.

We talked about this some time ago, 1 piece and 2 piece bells, and to my memory the 2 piece bell has more resonance and gives a better tone because the bell itself, not the bell stem, is solid pure metal (brass, copper, silver, etc) with no welding joint down the middle of it. Andy has tested all these types of bells and he wanted the best sounding bells for his horns which is a two piece.

If you think a bell with a dead led solder joint down the middle of it is more alive other than a bell of pure solid metal, then I welcome you to try my or any Taylor trumpet. Maybe you should also try his square and octagon trumpet bells as well. He even makes a bell with jewels on it. Now that should "live'n" things up a bit.

Liad Bar-EL

Veldkamp

Well, it may come as a suprise to you, but I've played several Taylors, Eclipses and Monettes. I tested the Taylor VR for 3 weeks in various conditions and several heavy Taylors in different settings. That said, I'm always open to try your horn ofcourse. I will test the new Taylor V for a brassmagazine I'm writing for if Andy sends the horn.

I talked to Andy in april about why he builds 2 piece bells and I know why Monette makes 2 piece bells. That's their philosophy of sound, which isn't mine nor Bach's, Yamaha's or Hub van Laar's philosophy who makes my horns. I don't feel it gives a more resonand sound, I don't hear it either. But it's good that there is so much variety in horns and I like testing all those different horns like the Harrelson Muse I tested in may.

I know for sure my Hub van Laar trumpet and flugelhorn has a 1 piece Hub van Laar bell btw. He is one of the few bell makers (like Taylor) in the world.

Oh yeah, it's not (only) about the solder joint, but about keeping the metal the same thickness till the rim with a 2 piece bell. I don't like that. The reason vintage Bachs sounds so well is because of the variable thickness of the bell. Andy and Dave don't believe in that philosophy.

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Liad Bar-EL

Yeah, you might want to talk to Andy about this and ask him what I asked him a couple of years ago for I don't remember his reply.

As I remember, I said: "Doesn't it make sense that one would get a better and more even sound if the metal bell was turned on the lathe (like the Yamahas) using a computer rather than by hand because if you have to itch your nose, sneeze, cough, burp or fart, etc, that part of the bell metal just might be thicker/thinner than the rest of the bell? Nobody has an even hand press on a lathe like a computer would have."

I think he said something to the effect that there are more important factors to consider in making a horn to get a good sound than an computerized press on the lathe to make a bell for that difference in metal thickness is so small, that it doesn't make a significant difference in the sound.

It would seem then that using computer lathes are more for speed - high volume production than for sound qualities.

It boils down to if one doesn't want a hand made horn with all of its variances and prefer a mass produced "sterile" horn with no variances (and no character, IMO), then go buy a Bach or a Yamaha.

Liad Bar-EL

P.S. Please give Andy my best regards.

Manny Laureano

Does it make sense to think that the only real way to tell is by having one manufacturer make two of the same model instrument? Then, you would ask that one bell be two-piece and the other one-piece.

It's about the only way to solve a riddle like this one. Does anyone know whether a manufacturer has done this? Remember, I'm talking about all the parts of the horn are the same. The only difference can be that the bells, which have to be the same size, taper, etc., are one and two piece.

You would think SOMEBODY has done this and sold them as options.

ML

Veldkamp

It boils down if you like the horn and get the sound you're looking for. There are many great players playing the latest Yamahas. The new Yamahas don't sound sterile or without character like the older Xenos do (IMO). Many great players like Wayne Bergeron, Nicholas Payton, etc. must like them otherwise they wouldn't be playing them. I tested the 9335NYS, 9445CHS and the 8310Z. I wouldn't be ashamed of playing them.

But all my vintage and new horns are hand made and sound better. My latest Hub van Laar trumpet is 2 weeks old. After playing 2 notes on it, I know it would be my new horn. And I even didn't look for a new horn....

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gzent

I read somewhere that Schilke did things like that. I can't imagine that Monette, Benge and Bach didn't do A/B comparisons with different seam locations as well.

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Liad Bar-EL

Erik, you are right! It's The Man Behind The Horn (as Leon Merian states) that in the end counts when it comes to making the trumpet work to make music for people to enjoy. The horn could be a dime a dozen, mass produced one or a specially hand crafted one. The horn itself is not going to make you something that you are not and for sure it will not play itself for you.

Erik, I am also right. I started this thread focusing on the Taylor trumpet for its personal personality "stamp" that Andy put on this horn and that he puts on all of his horns. I consider it as a valued item that money can't buy in other horns much the same as an artist puts a part of his self into his work that others can feel and enjoy. I have always tried to come back to this point throughout this thread. Through my studies in Kabbalah, this awareness of soul by recognizing these feelings more in people, things, events, etc has grown considerably and has improved my musicianship greatly. I tried to relay this to you all as musicians thinking that you all would pick up on this readily but nobody has picked up on it. I suppose then that I should be on a Kabblah thread for they would know exactly what I was talking about.

First, you wanted to see the horn which I don't blame you for I would have liked to see it also if I have not seen one before; so, I edited my first post and put in a picture. Then you wanted some specs which I also posted which was all good and fine. You wanted then to know about its technical features which I explained to let you all know that not only does this horn carry an "artistic soul" to it but is of the latest of the State of the Arts in technical developments. Now you want to talk about who plays what horn which I do not want to address for this was not the purpose of my thread. I only wanted to let you all know how much I enjoy Taylor's horn and why. The sound is so rich that it makes me want to play better and I do!!

One last point on the technical side of things here before I leave this thread. Erik, you are concerned about the one piece bell as being more alive vs the two piece bell as not being likewise. I really can not address that issue for first we have to define our terms of what "alive" means. By alive you could mean "bright" of which is not the standard character sound of Taylor horns. He may want to change this in the future, I don't know. Just for now, we'll just say that the word "alive" means to have a better sound. The bell is only one of the areas responsible for sound production; however, there is another area of the horn which is even more critical in this regard, the mouth pipe. If we were to take your logic, Erik, of less pieces make a better sound in a horn, then Taylor's single piece mouth pipe should make the sound very much better than many other horns that are made with a mouth pipe of three pieces.

Now, one last point on the subject other than technical that I have been trying to convey from the very first post before we got caught up in all this technical stuff. I know that we live in a highly technical world and everybody has this on his mind these days. This technical frame of reference has displayed itself in amazing trumpet abilities that few can accomplish. The area that I tried to address was not technical but rather in the line of something very personal, spiritual or what ever term you want to call it. I will leave this thread by asking you technocrats and other musicians with this question to help illustrate my point in this thread. Which would you prefer to listen to from a trumpet player, many notes that will baffle you as to how difficult they are to play or just one note that will make you cry with joy and love and that sound that has been known to bring down walls (in Jericho) and it is not because of the volume?

Liad Bar-EL