uatrmpt

Phil, Mike, Bud, Pat, etc., etc., etc. (just insert a pro that plays on Bach) all have the playing ability to overcome the limitations of any horns that come their way. They also all have within a short distance the resources to try a large amount of horns so that they might find one that fits them best. I'm curious, specifically to PH, how many horns you tried before you settled on your current Bb. I'm not specifically referring to quality of the horns you tried, but just how long it took you find one that's right for you.

Some of us, on the other hand, are limited to whatever the local guitar shop has on stock; or, in my case, whatever horn the local music shop brought out to my high school band room.

I was a college music major (music ed); and, for me, trumpet playing was a chore in college (a means to an end -- the degree) and is slowly becoming a hobby, now that the drudgery of hashing my way through etudes is over. I know that I'll never be a world class performer, or even a performance major; however, my playing is sophisticated enough to appreciate a high caliber instrument. I can immediately tell a difference between an Eclipse and my Bach, or a Lawler and my Bach, or even a better Bach and my Bach. My goal as an amateur player, who has a limited amount of time to spend on the horn, is to have an instrument which I will not have to fight against, an instrument that can insure all of the problems in my playing are me and not the horn. For me, Bach isn't that horn. I do believe in the that there is something special about a good Bach. A great Bach, in the hands of a great player, cannot be beaten; however, any Bach in the hands of a poor to average performer will expose your weaknesses and then slice you to the bone with them.

If you read my list of horns, you will note that I didn't include Bach on there. That is because I feel that for the majority of trumpet players -- those who will never go beyond high school or college band, or even those who will keep playing, but not be a music major, there are better values when you consider price vs. quality vs. sound/playability. In my part of the county, Strads are going for $1700-$2000+, especially if you finance. A Yamaha or Getzen can be had for much less and the quality will be spot on. Heck, Schilkes only go for around $1900. So, other than the sound, why Bach?

__________________
--Matt--

camelbrass

Matt,

Why would you want to discount sound when buying or trying a trumpet? Isn't that the whole point?

I can see Pat's point. Both the 37 and 43 Bach are benchmarks...the original scenario was buying one trumpet that last you throughout your playing career...and are perfect for the role. I can't think of one playing situation where either one of those trumpets doesn't fit in. Something more exotic is great to own but just won't be right in some circumstances, and anything less just doesn't have the right sound. You're probably a much better player than I am but I don't understand 'the horn is easier to play, therefore it's much better' line...shouldn't it be 'the horn sounds much better therefore it's much better'? This argument seems to be very prevalent on these boards regardless of the experience of the player.

Sorry I'm a little bit off topic.

Regards,


Trevor

PH

I went to the music store across the street from my school and played 3 horns (two 37s and a 43). I bought the best one, but the other 2 were both just fine.

I also picked Trevor's horn out for him (at the same store). I played 5 different Bachs that day. 4 of the 5 were excellent. Tell the nice people about your horn, Trevor (if you are so inclined).

Anyway, I agree that sound is the number one most important factor and that is why I prefer Bach. However, there is another thing. Some other horns are more "user friendly" and forgiving. However, for the serious player this is not necessarily a plus. In order to get the best results from a Bach a person needs to learn to play consistently and correctly. I have found time and again--both in my own playing and with serious students--that when they get a good Bach and learn to play it their skills improve dramatically because the instrument insists that you play correctly!

uatrmpt

Hypothetical to some, but real situation to me: You're in rural Alabama (or any state...could be inner city). You're in a school of 1200 students, grade 7-12...or maybe 500 students, grades K-12. Many of your students are in the lower middle class, a lot of them play on horns bought for $50 in the local Want Ads. You know the kind, valves are slow, slides don't move, a ponytail holder keeps the spit valve on. 99% of them will never play in a group beyond high school. .5% might play in a college band. Maybe one or two every few years will be a music major. 40% of the school is on Free or Reduced Lunches. Lots of mobile home dwellers. How do you suggest improving the quality of instruments in the band? Remember, these families have one vehicle that costs LESS than the price of a new Bach trumpet.

To me, how a horn sounds is assumed -- I shouldn't have to write it. If it plays easier, but doesn't have the sound I want, I'm not going to buy it. That's one reason I swapped back to my Bach 3C and sold my GR. Sometimes, though, you've gotta make trade offs. I'd take a horn that might not sound as good over a horn that sounds worse and is held together with duct tape any day. Also, none of the horns listed in my first post sacrifice sound. They may not have the "Bach" sound, which isn't always desired, but they don't sacrifice in sound.

In terms of "exotic" horns, I've never heard of a situation where an Eclipse, Lawler, or Schilke didn't fit in.

__________________
--Matt--

shsutrumpetkat

well, im not sure where to start a reply to this, but i'll give a good whack at it. I will be the first person to agree that there are tons of trumpets, that can make your job easier as a trumpet player, but many of them don't have the same sound as a bach. I would hope most trumpet teachers agree, that you always can bring your playing back to working on your sound. Now a trumpet player entering the college atmosphere is going to be facing numerous tasks. Biggest is learning how to play in an ensemble and blend with other trumpet players. The most standard professional equipt out there is a Bach 37 and a Bach 229.

As far as price goes. Bach strads are selling on Ebay, TrumpetHerald, and Trumpet master from 750-1200 everyday. Their cheap, buying a brand new trumpet is like buying a brand new car. Why? Plus, If you have 5000 in your pocket, you have the liberty to buy a horn, you don't like it, sell it. Almost every High School band director in the country tells their kids to upgrade to a Bach 37, the thing will sell if you don't like it.

The Pros can play whatever they want. Nobody is going to tell Mike Sachs that he can't play a Getzen, he plays a Bach because he loves it, it sounds good. Just why Chris Martin plays a Yamaha Artist Series. You can't argue with that. These guys could play whatever they want, but they are above that level, they know what is importaint. Response, Intonation, and Feel are all aspects in their playing. But Sound always comes first.

In a masterclass i went to with Mr. Sachs he always stressed that you never give up your sound. You want to be a trumpet player, you go in the practice room and bang it out. You can Fix wrong notes and you can fix bad intonation. But equipment wise, go with the great sound.

I'm sick and tired of a microwave trumpet world. Buying a 5000 trumpet will not make you sound good on Mahler 7. I do understand trumpet playing is a hobby for some, but that doesn't mean find the quick route to things. There are no shortcuts for trumpet playing. Bang it out, work on playing efficently. I heard bob o'neal play a double A on a mouthpiece in a lesson once. You think it matters what horn he plays on? The point is, if you can't play it, you can't play it. The equipment can only change so much. Go with the standard, go with something that isn't going to break your wallet, and something your can depend on. Just by a bach, and go hit the practice room.

__________________
J R
Bach 37
Bach 72 LWB 43LP
Bach 229 25 H
Vintage Selmer Picc
Bach 239 Eb

uatrmpt

I'm not going to quote all of your post, but I that the best reply to it is contained in my second (?) post:

I said:

Other people said:

What's so special about that sound? Why is it prefered? Lots of players have made lots of money with Schilke sounds, or Benge sounds, or Besson sounds, or Olds sounds, or even Monette sounds.

Is that necessarily right? IMO, nope.

So, why tell everybody else to buy a Bach?[/quote]

__________________
--Matt--

lonelyangel

Can't argue with Pat Harbisons advice - he is right on the money as usual. I would say choose any horn you enjoy playing and spend the rest on tuition.

I would also suggest looking at buying a vintage instrument and Olds from the 40's, 50's or 60's or a Bach or a Benge. Any instrument in reasonable condition from this era is a joy to play, especially if you put something aside fro a quality overhaul or reconditioning.

Obviously you could also buy an Eclipse - in fact you could make a trip over to London, have Leigh custom build a horn for you, take a lesson with me if you like and if you come in August you could also book a lesson with pat Harbison - who usually teaches on the Abersold course in Richmond each year.

Just one thought regarding the recent posts. In my hunble opinion a Bach trumpet doesn't have a particular sound, neither does an Eclipse, a Yamaha, a Shilke and so on. It is the player who has the sound. Phil Smith doesn't make a Bach sound - he makes his own sound and the same goes for all of us.

All the best. Noel.

__________________
Noel Langley - Eclipse Artist noel@eclipsetrumpets.com

Eclipse Medium Yellow, scratch gold
Eclipse Medium Heavy Red, custom 'Diamond Back' in 24ct gold
Eclipse Red Brass Flugel
Custom Scherzer piccolo with copper Wedgewood bell, finished in scratch gold
Giardinelli 6S, 6M, 6FL Bach 3CW

tpter1

Lawler Model T
I'd love to recommend Eclipse, but have not played one (yet...)
Bach 180 37 bell
Yamaha Xeno
Kanstul (with the recommendation to try as many different models as possible.

__________________
-Glenn
"Roses have thorns; shining waters mud. Clouds and eclipses stain the moon and the sun; and history reeks of the wrongs we have done. After today, after today, consider me gone."- Sting

camelbrass

uatrmpt,

Please don't misunderstand me. Your opening statement was a direct shot at Bach trumpets and one that I think was totally incorrect .....if you notice I didn't say anything about the sound of Bach trumpets other than that as a benchmark that sound fits lots of different environments even with all my shortcomings as a player. I did not say that Olds, Benge, Yamaha, Schilke etc horns do not.

What I did try to say (obviously inadequately) was that sound, even as an amatuer should be the primary reason that you play a particular type of trumpet and not how little time you need to spend in attaining mediocrity of either sound or technique.

As Pat has said, I'm a very lucky guy and he kindly chose one for me (but only because like you I don't have access to any stores). I have now sold or am in the process of selling about $6,000 worth of horns that just don't fit in (and not because they're not good trumpets) and have gone back to a good old Bach 37 ml in silver and it's a great trumpet...well made and in tune. Something that lots of 'experts' here tell me is impossible.


Regards,


Trevor

uatrmpt

Perhaps my opening statement was a shot at Bach trumpets. I happen to play on one (ML 37/3C combination) and, before I needed money, played on a 239-25R C Trumpet, which was the best C I have played. My comments about Bachs are based on experience. And, like both I and Pat said, Bachs will reveal any inadequacies in your playing and make them quite obvious.

Assuming that amateurs only want to attain mediocrity of sound and technique is a pretty poor assumption to make.

__________________
--Matt--