Reverend

That's right! The Wild, Wild West forum is probably most applicable, as ANY horn can be discussed, and there is much less chance to run into "edits" by the moderators!

Should things really heat up, I believe the "Steel Cage" forum would be the next stop!

Blessings,

Anonymous

I think you are starting to get the Hang of this Rev :)

You are right. Next stop STEEL CAGE

TM

TangneyK

Blah blah blah!!!!!

Go f***ing practice or somethng!

--Kevin

JACKKANSTUL

This is in reply to Jazzman's question regarding Kanstul making for other companies. You can also go to the Kanstul forum and view this under the subject; Kanstul Vs. Other Kanstul Made Horns.

My father enjoys what he does and has made a lot of excellent instruments over the years, that's 50 to be exact. There is no one in the industry that knows a Resonating Tube like he does. No one. His craftsmanship is impeccable. He couldn't make a bad horn if he tried. When he makes for other companies he makes to THEIR specifications. They might ask for suggestions but it is THEIR horn done the way they want. They will sink or swim with it.

He of course does have his own opinions on what makes a better instrument and reserves that intimate knowledge for his own personal horns.(see Kanstul Forum; Kanstul Vs. Other Kanstul Made Horns.)

As for getting your own Kanstul Custom Horn that has always been an option. You just need to ask.

Jack Kanstul[/quote]

mark125

That sounds pretty clear, Mr. Kanstul

A kanstul is a kanstul and a zeus is a zeus. No comparison should be made. It is just made in the same building.
I would assume that you either hired some extra workers to build the zeus and the other brands you make or your sales of kanstul fell off enough to free up your existing workers to make the other brands or you are working some overtime now.
Any way, I would feel better getting a kanstul with the kanstul name on it so I know I am getting a good horn with someone to stand behind it.
Each to his own, that is way there are so many brands of trumpets available and so many trumpet makers still in business.
Mark

JACKKANSTUL

Mark,

That is the whole purpose of my service. No one is going to back a Kanstul better than Jack Kanstul.

To the Music,

Jack Kanstul

Larry Gianni

Hi All,

I’d like to re-ideate and further explain some of my earlier post on the subject of Kanstul Musical Instruments and Zig Kanstul himself.

Again , I’d like to say , I don’t play or own and Kanstul instrument , not that I don’t want to, but my practice room closet is full at the moment , but I’ve been to the Kanstul facility in Anaheim on occasion and have meet Zig Kanstul, Mark Kanstul and Jim New. They have been all very gracious and let me roam the plant freely to take a look.

Zig Kanstul plays no favorites in producing a very high quality product for either himself or his other trumpet manufacturer clients. A Kanstul trumpet bell, ( I think there are 32 different bell variations ) Callet Bell, Scodwell bell , Zeus bell , Lawler bell, Bell Canto bell, Wild Thing bell all get the same treatment as far as production, bending , buffing, plating , etc.. ( I’ve not mentioned trombone , Cornet , Marching Brass , Euphonium , Tuba , etc bells )

The same crews that make a bell for the most expensive trumpet make the bells for the least expensive trumpets. Yes, it’s true, so stop shaking your head .The crew that assembles trumpets, assembles ALL the trumpets, regardless of final, retail price. The same buffing crew buffs every bell, and every bell is cleaned and plated in the same tanks.

The assumptions that are made by some members of the forum as to “production Methods “of the different models produced at Kanstul’s are completely erroneous. Kanstul sales have not slumped; in fact they have risen thru this down economy. Zig Kanstul makes trumpets for himself and others and if there are a lot of orders in, well this is how it work, YOU HAVE TO WAIT LONGER TO GET IT !

You can not just go out and hire workers that know this business. The techniques used are really only learned on the job and it takes years to get to an expert level. You just don’t go to a “temp “agency and request 6 bell makers, 2 trumpet mounters and a finisher, right.

Enough said, I think you get my drift. It’s the same as If you’re in a crowded doctor’s office waiting to see the doctor, he doesn’t hire more staff to make sure in and out faster does he, no, and you just have to wait for your visit so get the help of an expert.

The other tremendous positive that allows Kanstul to be the “ go too “ brass instruments parts manufactures is his investment the latest technological, computer driven machining equipment. While most other brass instrument manufacturers are scaling back spending, Zig Kanstul is investing in “ high end “ computer drive tool and die machines that can take either a computer scan or dimensions in increments of .001 of an inch and cut a mandrel so anyone’s bell can be manufactured .

Remember, who brought us all " The Mouthpiece Comparater " that let us overlay mouthpieces to see how they compare. Now that using technology.

Mouthpiece makers that have been in business for 50 years havn't achieved anything like this. We have ot thank Jim New at Kanstul for this one, a business started in the 80's and just recently got in the mouthpoiece end of it.
Again, Kanstul using cutting edge technology.

You want to see pictures of the Kanstul facility, then take a minute and check this URL out. It’s from some else’s website but is actually pictures of the Kanstul Facility in Anaheim. In fact, Mark Kanstul one of Zig’s other sons is in one of the shots. Please, this is not any type of put-down of any one’s website or product, just to help my discussion.

I wanted to just capture the picture of the bell mandrels and computer driven lathes , but the url won’t let me ( or I don’t know how to do it ).

http://www.zacharymusic.com/Zachary_...900Factory.htm

The entire factory pictures, the showroom pictures and mouthpieces are actually Kanstul’s Musical Products.

Back to my point. You need the very expensive technology and expensive technicians to be able to cut a piece of spinning hardened steel ( about 3200 rpm’s ), 6 inches in diameter ( large bell flare ) and about 3 fat long , at a different increment every .001 of an inch ,descending increments of cut, ascending increments in mandrel thickness until it reaches it largest point.( bell flair ) Kanstul can do this, in house because of the huge Zig’s attempts to keep up on the times as far a tooling and machinery goes.

They are one of the few brass instrument shops that can all the hardware for the instrument (Mandrels, dies, castings, etc) and they produce the product. Some of other manufactures ( not he big guys , I assume ) have to get the raw data , give it to a tool and die company that not only makes bells mandrills and tuning slide dies , but dies for muffler shop and water pump outfits , pay for it, get the hardware , back make the bells ( parts, etc. ) and hope it accurate

Every different bell, tuning slide, crook, bend, has to have a die or mandrel made (this includes trumpet cornets, trombones, tubas, etc. check out Kanstul’s site www. Kanstul.com and see all the different products they produce. ) . Because Kanstul can take specifications either on paper of on a disk and end up with a finished product that we all agree is a very high quality product, they are the “ State of the Art “ company when you need this kind of service. That’s why other manufactures have Kanstul produce for them and you’re well aware that some of these trumpets break the $ 2500.00 mark.

A very well known mid-west trumpet manufacturer that been around from the 60’s actually do not make their own bells but buy them from a supplier (not Kanstul). They originally made their own bells, but because of cost have decided to buy them from an outsource. They have a very fine line of trumpets and I maline them not.

There are a lot of speculations and assumptions thrown around on the forums (both here and others). Opinions don’t have to be facts, but statements should.

Larry

Thevor

Larry is correct that the processes of manufacturing the mandrells and dies for any horn, let alone trumpets is an incredible cost to the manufacturer. When you think of equipment that can hold tolerances of .001 inches or 1/1000th of an inch, it is mind boggeling. To put it into perspective, the average human hair is .003" thick, to machine a die or mandrell (just another word for molds) that isn't off more than .001" from the beginning of the part to the end of the part is an amazing feat. The modern machines, called CNC (computer numeric controls) automate the process of manufacturing these complicated patterns by taking programed patterns and recreating that program into the shape desired.

If you wish to manufacture a slide, the question is, how is this done? A simple explanation is shown on the Yamaha site. It explains the entire process of manufacturing a trumpet but shows how each section of the trumpet is made. Including the dies for the slides and tubing.

http://www.yamaha.co.jp/edu/english/.../tp/index.html

A very good page to help understand the bell making process is shown on the Selmer site. It involves video streaming but is worth the download.

http://www.selmer.com/products/video/trump_vid.html


Some good pics of the bell and madrell are shown on these sites

http://www.matthewparkertrumpets.com/tptmake.htm

http://web.mit.edu/~stratton/www/bellmaking.html

Remember, the end result of trumpet parts doesn't look very complicated but the process of getting there is. The original equipment investment, hand tools and the die and mandrell cost all play into the end result of the horn cost. The initial price for manufacturing dies and a bell mandrell for different horns wouldn't vary from horn to horn, it's EXPENSIVE, period! regardless of the horn. In the case of the Wild Thing, I imagine that the dies and mandrell are specific to the the horn and cannot be used for any other horn. The tooling cost can't be passed on to any other horn, it's entirely absorbed in the price of the horn seller. His intial investment has to be recouped.

Yet there is another horn that is noted for it's excellent price, how is the cost kept down? (This is entirely my own speculation) Typically, using dies and mandrells used for other horns (previously used tool and die sets or currently used on another current model) can defer the heavy cost that proprietary dies and molds would cost. Essentially, the more the parts are shared from horn to horn, the less expensive the horn, esentially the cost is spread out amoung more horns. This does not mean the horn is "cheaper" in quality, in fact the quality can be greater in some instances because of the familiartiy of the parts being manufactured. If someone makes 50 of one type of bell and only 10 of another during a production run, which do you think the bell maker is going to be more familiar with and more proficient at? Some times quality is that simple.

The best example of this process was the Olds horns that were manufactured in in LA, which continue to share tremendous poplularity. The basics of these horns, from the student Ambassador to the top of the line horns share many similarities.

Just some thoughts and hopefully helps on the manufacturing process.

Geo

Larry Gianni

Wow Thevor,

Your explanation was EXCELLENT. It was very clear and " right on the money " . Thanks for helping my somewhat wondering post makes sense. Your " so-called ' speculations were absolutly on target.

Hey TM , you've got a very intellegent group here. You wouldn't find such an exceptional , educated and detailed post on most other sites.

Wow, talk about a guy that would cover my part for 16 bars so I could rest and be able to hit the high note at the end. Your a good guy, Thevor.

Oh by the way, Zig Kanstul was a VP of Production for the F.E. Olds Company ( Anaheim, California ) and I agree with you on the workmanship of Olds instruments. They are actually a very under-rated , high quality line of instruments that command a well deserved and very loyal following.

We all know Rapheal Mendez played Olds but also remember this , Bobby Shew played a Olds " Studio " before his association with Yamaha.

Thanks again, Thevor - I owe you one. Checks in the mail.

Larry

Anonymous

Thanks Larry,

Yup I think we have one heck-of-a group here.

That was an awesome post Thevor. Thanks!

TM