trumpeterb

Uncle Albert,

You are probably right. I agree that a water key or lack thereof really doesn't make that much, if any, difference in how the horn plays. My old Yamaha had a third slide water key, and I really don't think it affected the playing much. The string is in place, however, not to take the place of the water key, but of any other mechanism that might be used to keep the third slide from overextending and falling off, such as a stop rod or other device. As previously stated, it may have something to do with the resonation of the horn, it may have something to do with the fact that anytime you add more "parts" to a horn it can change the sound...but I think it has more to do with the look of the horn. I think that the horn was meant to look simple and minimalistic in nature, and by not adding a water key or a stop rod, it helps to acheive this look.

Andy

__________________
Bach Bb 43
Bach C 229
Bach Eb/D 229
Stomvi Elite Pic
King Flugel Horn
Cerveny Bb Rotary

dcstep

Yeah, I vote for water keys on third slides. I've had four horns in the house in the last few weeks with no water key on the 3d; yet, my Selmer Paris (con water key) was superior to all in intonation and resonance, no matter what valve combinations I used.

I suspect that it is possible to place a water key poorly and impact the response in a negative way, BUT I've noted no correlation that would indicate that removing the 3d slide key improves response. Having a key removes the risk that you'll drop the slide on a hard concrete floor in the middle of a gig and not be able to re-insert it into the horn (been there, done that).

Dave

__________________
Schilke '60 B1
Selmer Paris -- '57 #20 K-Modified/
'03 Concept TT w/ GR66.8B2.8
'94 Lawler TL cornet w/ Sparx 2B
Conn Vintage One flugel - GR66FD
www.pitpops.com www.ucm-inc.com
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

trpguyy

Yeah, Ive done that, too. Except my Bach does have a waterkey. Those blasted stop rod nuts went AWOL years ago, and the slide just fell off. The slide hasn't moved the same since. Maybe I shouldn't have use Slide-o-Mix on it?

dcstep

I hate those stop-rods. They are always coming loose and rattling, then ultimately they fall off, unless they freeze in place and you can't remove the slide.

You can still lose the screw, but I prefer the flange with screw stop used by Yamaha, Stomvi, Selmer Paris, etc. (We won't even talk about that stupid string on the Monettes).

Dave

__________________
Schilke '60 B1
Selmer Paris -- '57 #20 K-Modified/
'03 Concept TT w/ GR66.8B2.8
'94 Lawler TL cornet w/ Sparx 2B
Conn Vintage One flugel - GR66FD
www.pitpops.com www.ucm-inc.com
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

trpguyy

Yeah, my Bach C has one of those. I don't recall seeing too many on Bachs, but I could be wrong. Those are definitely the way to go, IMO. I don't know though, I've never tried a string.
There's a joke in there somewhere about "tried/tied" a string, but I'm not going there. Too much work for such little outcome. ;)

trumpeterb

I think I see where you were going with that....that's great stuff....

__________________
Bach Bb 43
Bach C 229
Bach Eb/D 229
Stomvi Elite Pic
King Flugel Horn
Cerveny Bb Rotary

bugler16

My Bahc C also has a screw system like the Yamaha's. I really prefer that set up to the stop rod that is on my Bach Bb's. However when I had my horns goldplated at Kanstul they put a small belck rubber cap over the end of my stop rods. This keeps the nuts from coming off the end and falling on the floor. I have seen a couple people with a small clear rubber ring around the ends of there stop rods to keep the nuts from falling off. So there is a solution.

MUSICandCHARACTER

Unless it was cyro'd

Just kidding.

Anyway, sometimes small things make a difference. Maybe not by themselves, but as part of the whole. I have a friend who strips his horn of lacquer as soon a he gets it. He truly believes the lacquer dampens the sound. I'll have to get him to try an unlacquered ZeuS here in the near future.

Lots of horns don't have water keys -- it makes you wonder why. But my guess is that there is a perceived sound difference. I played euphonium for many years, and my son has started it this year. It seems that the main tuning slide has a water key, but not the valve tubes. Water is always gurgling in the 2nd and 3rd valve tubes. He asked me why there was no "spit valve" on those slides. I don't really know, but I can't say I have ever seen a euphonium with them. It must have something to do with the sound.

Uncle Albert is probably right that most couldn't tell the difference. But overall, does it help the Olympus? Probably some. Little things can add up and often do.

__________________
Dr. Jim Fox
Licensed Mental Health Therapist
Mouthpiece chart: www.ibowtie.com/tmptmpccharts.html

trpguyy

I just returned home from the NY Brass Conference. Earlier today I attended a seminar by Bob Mallone, a leader in instrument repair and design. He brought up the fact that, and I quote,
"Having a waterkey on the third valve slide does have a drastic effect on the response of the horn."
He went on to demonstatre just how big a difference the "minute" things make. He showed that loosening the bottom valve caps makes a noticable difference in sound, and he demonstrated the HUGE difference that replacing the waterkey cork made.

Long story short...the lack of waterkey and stop system does have a noticable effect on the chacteristics of the horn.

dcstep

Yeah, BUT there are trumpets with third slide waterkeys that outperform horns without waterkeys, so I wouldn't let that be a decision-maker for me. How it plays overall is more important than any one brace, tuning slide orientation or water key selection.

Dave

__________________
Schilke '60 B1
Selmer Paris -- '57 #20 K-Modified/
'03 Concept TT w/ GR66.8B2.8
'94 Lawler TL cornet w/ Sparx 2B
Conn Vintage One flugel - GR66FD
www.pitpops.com www.ucm-inc.com
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest