Alan Dismukes

I use a vintage deep vee cup Buescher 11 mouthpiece with my 12A. I fits nicely and gives a great dark, smokey sound. I guess I could use a Bach mouthpiece (the fit is not perfect, but playable), but I don't see any reason to. A modern Bach cornet mouthpiece has a trumpet cup and produces a much brighter sound.

If I am playing a vintage cornet, I want it to sound like a vintage cornet. If I want a brighter, trumpet sound, I play a trumpet.

At first I was concerned about how it would affect my embouchure to play on different mouthpieces, but I have found that to be no problem. I have 3 vintage cornets, and for each of them sought an appropriate mouthpiece after I had obtained the horn. My 1928 Buescher plays best with the contemporaneous Buescher No. 1 mouthpiece I found on Ebay.

__________________
1974 Bach ML 37 Strad Trumpet
1928 Buescher Bb/A Cornet
1947 Conn 12A Coprion Cornet
1914 Holton New Proportion Cornet

screamingmorris

I know what you mean and I agree in general, but I disagree in the details.
If you wanted to remain faithful to the sound that the Conn company intended for that Conn 12A cornet, then you would probably have to use a Conn 4 mouthpiece.
The Bach 7 mouthpiece that I use is just as "V" shaped as the Conn 4 and is actually deeper than the Conn 4 so that it gives a mellower sound than the Conn 4.
(It has been about a year since I sold all of my Conn 4's, but I remember them as being approximately a Bach 5C but with slightly more "V"-shaped cup than the Bach 5C.)

So if one were to use an extremely deep "V"-cupped cookie-cutter mouthpiece from the turn of the century, that would actually be an anachronism because the Conn 12A was made late-1930's to mid-1950's and I think it was usually sold with a Conn 4 mouthpiece.

It is really a matter of preference rather than a matter of propriety.

Bach 7 and Bach 7E are both Bach cornet mouthpieces, but they are totally different in cup shape and in cup depth, so they cannot be lumped together as having a "trumpet sound".

"If I want a brighter, trumpet sound, I play a trumpet."
The best trumpet I ever played was a bare-metal .460-bore 1960 Holton Super Collegiate cornet with Weril W46 mouthpiece.
It gave my High F's a beauty and clarity that I was never able to achieve on a trumpet, not even on a 1952 Conn 22B.

Many trumpet players have posted that they have no problem switching between different mouthpiece cup diameters.
Many other players, myself included, find it difficult to switch like that.

I spent much time and money on a mouthpiece safari and I finally settled on Bach 7, Bach 7E, Weril W46 (identical to the Bach 7E except shallower and tighter).
It is very difficult to find a shallow mouthpiece of another brand that has the cup diameter and cup depth and cup shape of Bach 7E and Weril W46.
Once I found those shallow cups adequate for my high-register trumpet needs, I then sought a much deeper version for mellow cornet playing, which led me to the fairly deep "V" cup of the Bach 7.

As much as I love the "Brass Band Sound", my forte is playing low, slow ballads such as "Danny Boy".
So I am looking for more of a "Mel Torme" jazz mellowness than a Brass Band Sound.

Anyway, I have decided against getting a pre-1958 Conn cornet because I just cannot afford to have a custom mouthpiece made to accommodate the old Conn tapers.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread.
I was hoping that most people would say "the Bach mouthpieces will work very well with the old Conn cornets", but that is not what was expressed, so I am heeding your warnings.

- Morris

Alan Dismukes

I have been trying to get a short shank Conn 4, but no luck so far.

__________________
1974 Bach ML 37 Strad Trumpet
1928 Buescher Bb/A Cornet
1947 Conn 12A Coprion Cornet
1914 Holton New Proportion Cornet

screamingmorris

I bought mine locally for $25 but then I sold it 6 months later because I wanted a slightly smaller diameter and different cup depth.
It is a very nice all-around mouthpiece that I liked a lot, but it didn't serve my needs

They occasionally show up on eBay:

CONN 4 Vintage Cornet Mouthpiece - Vertical Letters NR - eBay (item 330242239798 end time Jun-15-08 22:47:06 PDT)

One poster in Trumpet Herald said that he had a drawer full of Conn 4's that came with old instruments he had bought over the years, so you might place a wanted ad in both Trumpet Herald and in Trumpet Master.

- Morris

Indian

I have old style New York Bach 5Bs and they are 2.5" log. A standard new style cornet mouthpiece by Bach is 2.75" long. I also have an old style bach cornet mouthpiece that is 2.75" long. I assume that of the old style they came in standard and short shank versions. None of the old short shank mouthpiecess appear to have been shortened at home since the silver plating covers the end which it would not if the shank had been cut off after plating. Hope this helps.

__________________
Rob,
King Liberty SilverTone (3)
King Liberty (7) Super 20 (2)
Conn Vocabell 40A - Conn 80A (6) - Conn 81A (1) - 22B - 4B Symphony
Conn 16B (Coprion Bell)
Holton French LeBlanc (1) - Al Hirt 550
Olds Studio (1) - Special (1)

TGCS

the eBay ad (for older back cornet MP) mentioned above says its 2.5 inches. So is this the 'standard' length for a pre-58 cornet MP?

It would be interesting to find out - I have a 1949 Conn cornet on the way, and I'm not sure it comes with a 'period-correct' MP... (its described as a Bach 7C)

KRax!

It is at least my impression that old cornet mouthpieces of 2.5 inches length pretty much have the same kind of shank. I am sure there are exceptions, but it use to turn out well to think like that.

2.75 are modern Bach-clones.
Less than 2.5 are really old ones.

Those 2.75 and the really old shorter ones use to have the same shank end diameter, buthese Conn pre-1958 and other older 2.5 use to have a thicker shank end. Alas, old 2.5 often do not fit at all in pre ww1 cornets which new 2.75 do.... So do new short shanked (2.5) Yamaha and Denis Wick.

Another point: As new 2.5 has the same shank lenght, yes, but not the same shank end width as old 2.5, using a new short shank mp on an old horn will leave a bigger gap between mouthpiece and leadpipe.

Fidel

I have been there and back with mouthpieces and have settled for Bach 10 1/2 cw for trumpet and cornet. I tried a short shank yamaha 11c4 in with my 1946 Conn 80A Victor cornet but it just isn't right for me.
On the cornet I get a big dark and mellow tone with the Bach 10 1/2cw and on the trumpet I get bright or dark and mellow depending on how I blow it.
The characteristics of the horn in question have a great deal to do with balance and response and tone as do even minor changes in mouthpiece parameters.
I appear to just 'adapt' and continue to play happily on the piece that works best for me.
Any suggestions as to an older style short shank mouthpiece that is 'really' close to a Bach 10 1/2 cw would be most welcome as I am curious and willing to give it a try. Also this might clear up any short shank v long shank question.
With regard to the original query, if a short shank mouthpiece isn't the right one and doesn't deliver as good as your long shank mouthpiece then don't use it. My long shank mouthpiece seems to fit just fine and works for me.

Alan Dismukes

I finally picked up a nice short shank Conn 4. It certainly is a shallower cup and produces a much brighter sound compared to the Buescher 11 True-Tone I have been using. I prefer the dark mellow sound of the Buescher 11, but being able to switch to the Conn 4 is like having two different horns. My 12A really barks with that Conn 4!

__________________
1974 Bach ML 37 Strad Trumpet
1928 Buescher Bb/A Cornet
1947 Conn 12A Coprion Cornet
1914 Holton New Proportion Cornet

aspires

Man... if you really want an old Conn, I would just go for it! I see Conn 4s on ebay all the time... you just gotta be willing to pay $15-25 to win one. I have a Yamaha 9E short-shank (I believe they retail for like $25), which fits in my *1971* Conn Director. It tapers down to such a small diameter, and inserts almost the entire shank up to the cup. I would be shocked if it didn't fit an older Conn. I have a Bach 3C that came with that cornet, and it appears to insert just as far into the receiver... the main difference I can see is that the shank is about 1/2 inch longer, and that mpc sticks out a half inch more than my Yamaha, so I have to adjust tuning slide a little.

I suspect your Bach would *fit*, but as to what effects it might have on intonation, back-pressure, etc. I can't help with. There will always be more horns and mpcs out there, whatever you decide!