Newguy

Ok, I am the guy that bought the horn. First of all, I MENTIONED it to Morris that it was turning green around the valve case and that I would need to get a cover. His immediate response was, (without even checking with me), to refund my money through paypal because he felt badly that he must have sold me a defective product. I do not feel the horn is defective and Morris and I are going round and round about payment, and I find Morris a man of extreme honor who does NOT want to accept payment for something that is not as advertised, and he has also told me to keep the horn, "for my trouble"!! You don't run across such an honorable man very often!!

I was trying to stay out of this discussion for obvious reasons, but now, I feel I have to at least try and put the pictures on line that I sent to Morris, AFTER he refunded my money, just so he would know I was not pulling something over on him. I will let the pictures speak for themselves. As for not shipping the horn back across country to have someone work on it again when I have visual evidence of their work, I don't think so!

Please see attached photos. I hope they come out OK, I have never tried this before.

Attached Images

	P5060010.JPG (28.8 KB, 40 views)
	P5060011.JPG (37.5 KB, 39 views)

__________________
Bernie
1959 Holton Super Collegiate Trumpet
1960 Holton Super Collegiate Cornet
2008 Barrington Trumpet

Newguy

Update on the horn's current condition and a POSSIBLE cause. The horn right now has what I can best describe as a bad case of sunburn, dandruff or very dry skin. If you lightly run a fingernail over it, it flakes off like a sunburn peeling off. A POSSIBLE cause -- I had a one point joked with Morris that the HORN was not defective and even if it ALL turned KELLY green, (very close to EMERALD green), it would be a conversation starter on St. Paddy's Day!! Now, I don't know the timeline, only Mike does, but the Emerald Green horn that he made for someone MAY have been in the shop at the time Morris's (Mine) was and it MIGHT be possible if Morris's was the next one done, that the equipment was NOT 100% cleaned and gave a slight green hue to the horn and more importantly, caused bonding problems. Why is the green getting darker with time? I don't know, just as I don't know why the bonding seems to be getting worse. Why didn't I notice a slight green tint when I got it? Could be excitment with getting a new (to me) horn, certainly my first cornet. Could be the fact that I am blind in my left eye and have large floating jelly fish type floaters in my right one to the extent that at times when trying to read music, I can't tell without studying it if a note is on a line or a space -- but when it started getting noticibly green -- THAT I could see!! As I said, only Mike knows the timeline on the Emerald Green horn and Morris's horn and if this is a possibllity, but something went wrong somewhere.

__________________
Bernie
1959 Holton Super Collegiate Trumpet
1960 Holton Super Collegiate Cornet
2008 Barrington Trumpet

screamingmorris

When on Earth did Mike ever "bail me out"?

I gave him my old beat-up 1971 Getzen 300 for free because I thought he might be able to use it for parts.

And I sold him my 1970 Conn 22B (which needed refinishing) for $100, which it was well worth.

And I sold him my 1956 Conn Director that he was able to immediately sell for a profit on eBay.

So exactly how did Mike "bail me out"?
Mike making a profit on every deal he ever did with me consitutes "bailing me out"?

I never asked Mike to do the re-lacquer job for an amount set by me.
I asked Mike how much he would charge for the re-lacquer of a cornet that was already stripped, and Mike set the price.
Then later when Mike pointed out to me that the amount he was charging me was much less than he usually charges, I voluntarily paid Mike $25 more than the amount that he initially requested for the re-lacquer job.

Because Mike gave me such a good deal on the re-lacquer job, I didn't complain about the slightly green hue of the lacquer and the long drip line on the top of the bell and the several small drip lines on the valve casing because I did not want to appear ungrateful.
(The person I sold the cornet to also noticed the drip lines.)

I did not use the re-lacquered cornet after it came back to me because I had bought a Conn 5A cornet during the few weeks that Mike had the other cornet for re-lacquering.

I only said something when the person I sold the instrument to told me that the lacquer started turning bright green and peeling just a couple of weeks after he got it and started using it.

Mike claims that it is suspicious that the major problems with the re-lacquer job (turning more green and peeling off) appeared 2 months after he returned it to me rather than immediately?
What kind of logic is that?

Also, note that I did not name Mike in my original post and in later posts because I did not want to make the thread personal.
I simply wanted information on other people's experience with re-lacquer jobs so that I could find out how typical my experience was and so that I could get a better understanding of why it happened.
But Mike has now come into the thread and identified himself and attempted to make this thread a personal matter.

Bernie has posted photos of the worst part of the cornet re-lacquer job, how it looked after just a couple of weeks of use, so I will let the other posters here look at those photos and decide for themselves if I was imagining everything or lying about everything.

I *did* consult with Mike about the defective re-lacquer job *before* I ever posted here about it.
In fact, my very first post in this thread has me quoting what he wrote to me after I contacted him about the defective re-lacquer job (and I *protected* his identity by not mentioning his name).
I contacted him about the defective re-lacquer job, then he defended the re-lacquer job, so *then* I posted here asking for information regarding what Mike had claimed about re-lacquer only being "temporary" and how it can turn green and peel off after just a few weeks no matter how good the re-lacquer job was.
Mike will not offer me a refund because I posted here about the defective re-lacquer job?
As can be seen in my first post in this thread, Mike *defended* his green and peeling re-lacquer job and did not offer me a refund *before* I posted here about it.

The truth is that I repeatedly offered to drive to Mike's house, but Mike repeatedly declined the offer.
In fact, although I repeatedly offered to drive to Mike's house, Mike never gave me his address, so that after a 1-1/2 years of being acquainted with him I still don't know where Mike lives / where his shop is, although Mike knows where I live.
I entrusted my cornet to a man who never told me where he lives / where his shop is.

Rather than let this thread deteriorate further, I recommend closing this thread.
Posts in Trumpet Master should be for sharing information, not for attacking each other, so this thread has out-lived its purpose.

- Morris

Newguy

Rather than let this thread deteriorate further, I recommend closing this thread.
Posts in Trumpet Master should be for sharing information, not for attacking each other, so this thread has out-lived its purpose.

- Morris

Spoken as only an honorable man can.

__________________
Bernie
1959 Holton Super Collegiate Trumpet
1960 Holton Super Collegiate Cornet
2008 Barrington Trumpet

B

get down and dirty pull out all the stops to get your money and restoration paid for. But do not waste time with the BB they are useless and have no teeth. Local PD, states AG ect

Vulgano Brother

Morris, how did you strip the laquer off your trumpet? You said that it is the first one you sent in for a new laquer job. I wonder if another horn stripped the same way might get the same results from another tech. No judgment here, just trying to use that good old "scientific method," which, although it doesn't always work with violists and conductors, might work here.

I assume that nobody is lying, but simply stating reality as they see it.

I suspect that maybe, just maybe, the chemicals you used to strip your trumpet might be immune to the normal cleaning solutions used by techs. Nobody at fault here, mind you, but just perhaps a scientific anomaly to be investigated and perhaps solved.

I (and some others, I think) would love to know the answer!

__________________
www.letsbuildhope.org

screamingmorris

I asked that this thread be permanently closed after the re-lacquer person came here and identified himself and lied about me.
I am a retired minister, so his multiple slander thrown at me cut me deeply.

To the first person above in this thread who said that I should seek to have the re-lacquer guy refund my money or re-do the lacquer again:
I consider all of that money to be lost.
Not only did I lose the money that I gave to the guy for re-lacquering, but I also lost my original investment in the cornet because it was left in worse shape than when I bought it, it was left in a condition in which it could not be sold again.
After all, who would want to buy a green, peeling cornet?
And I did not have the money to have a better / more expensive re-lacquer job done on the cornet.
So I gave the cornet to someone for free.
I lost a lot of money that I could not easily afford to lose.
But the re-lacquer person lost much more.
He came here and he insisted that he did a good job of re-lacquering the cornet,
he claimed that I was lying about the lacquer,
he insisted that he was not going to give a refund,
he threw all sorts of angry false accusations at a retired minister,
and then the current owner of the cornet posted *photos* of how the cornet's lacquer was turning bright green and peeling after just 2 weeks of use so that we could see what kind of job the re-lacquer guy *really* did.
So his reputation is ruined, but not by me, because I protected his identity in this thread, he came here and he identified himself.

To the second person above who said that maybe I used some strange stripper on it that was affecting the re-lacquer:
When I bought the cornet it was already stripped, already polished bare metal, it was *gorgeous*.
In the short time that I owned it the cornet started to tarnish badly, so I asked the re-lacquer guy how much he would charge to re-lacquer it.
He quoted a price, then later he sounded liked he regretted quoting me such a low price, so I voluntarily paid him anothe $25 beyond what he asked for.
For that price he agreed to polish the tarnish off the cornet and then give it a couple of thin coats of regular non-epoxy lacquer.
I have no idea what the previous owner had used to strip the cornet nor do I know how long ago that stripping was done.
But the re-lacquer guy re-polished the entire cornet before re-lacquering it, so that polish should have removed any residue of past stripping.
I speculate that the polish residue might have affected the re-lacquer job.
In tiny crevices on the cornet I could see black residue under the new lacquer, black residue that had not been there when I turned over the cornet to the re-lacquer guy.
And it had not been a rush job.
He had told me that he would have the cornet for a couple of weeks, but it turned out that he had it for more like several weeks.

Anyway, this thread is best left permanently closed because nothing good will come from re-hashing the matter.
I lost a lot of money, my reputation was trashed.
Let's close the thread.

- Morris

screamingmorris

I asked that this thread be permanently closed after the re-lacquer person came here and identified himself and lied about me.
I am a retired minister, so his multiple slander thrown at me cut me deeply.

To the first person above in this thread who said that I should seek to have the re-lacquer guy refund my money or re-do the lacquer again:
I consider all of that money to be lost.
Not only did I lose the money that I gave to the guy for re-lacquering, but I also lost my original investment in the cornet because it was left in worse shape than when I bought it, it was left in a condition in which it could not be sold again.
After all, who would want to buy a cornet with dull, green, peeling lacquer that had several drip marks on it?
And I did not have the money to have a better / more expensive re-lacquer job done on the cornet.
So I gave the cornet to someone for free.
I lost a lot of money that I could not easily afford to lose.
But the re-lacquer person lost much more.
He came here and he insisted that he did a good job of re-lacquering the cornet,
he claimed that I was lying about the lacquer,
he insisted that he was not going to give a refund,
he threw all sorts of angry false accusations at a retired minister,
and then the current owner of the cornet posted *photos* of how the cornet's lacquer was turning bright green and peeling after just 2 weeks of use so that we could see what kind of job the re-lacquer guy *really* did.
So his reputation is ruined, but not by me, because I protected his identity in this thread, he came here and he identified himself.

To the second person above who said that maybe I used some strange stripper on it that was affecting the re-lacquer:
When I bought the cornet it was already stripped, already polished bare metal, it was *gorgeous*.
In the short time that I owned it the cornet started to tarnish badly, so I asked the re-lacquer guy how much he would charge to re-lacquer it.
He quoted a price, then later he sounded liked he regretted quoting me such a low price, so I voluntarily paid him anothe $25 beyond what he asked for.
For that price he agreed to polish the tarnish off the cornet and then give it a couple of thin coats of regular non-epoxy lacquer.
I have no idea what the previous owner had used to strip the cornet nor do I know how long ago that stripping was done.
But the re-lacquer guy re-polished the entire cornet before re-lacquering it, so that polish should have removed any residue of past stripping.
I speculate that the polish residue might have affected the re-lacquer job.
In tiny crevices on the cornet I could see black residue under the new lacquer, black residue that had not been there when I turned over the cornet to the re-lacquer guy.
And it had not been a rush job.
He had told me that he would have the cornet for a couple of weeks, but it turned out that he had it for more like several weeks.

Anyway, this thread is best left permanently closed because nothing good will come from re-hashing the matter.
I lost a lot of money, my reputation was trashed.
Let's close the thread.

- Morris