Is it really worth buying an old horn? - Page 5

Siegtrmpt · 08-15-2006, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richardwy

I like the old horns.

That's why I buy 'em.

Alex_In_CA · 08-17-2006, 03:52 AM

Grrrr.

But I think there *is* a limit ..... I'm a beginner and have read a bit and heard people sing the praises of the Olds Ambassador, Ok..... bid on one on EBay, didn't think I'd win it... meanwhile found Paul Ayick on the net and ordered one all "gone through by him" online..... for 2-1/2 times as much. Both arrive the same day. Both are about the same condition, and both are .... ok I guess but cranky. I'd rather just learn than fight with valves that don't go back up always etc., I got a nice Yamaha cornet from the local pawn shop and it works fine, I want to learn to play, i'll learn to fix 'em later lol. The two sight-unseen-bought horns are on on Ebay, hope I get a decent price for them but I don't care at this point.

From here on out, I'll buy a horn in person, if it'd a garage sale etc and it's a screamin' deal great, but I reserve the right to maintain the proper attitude towards ebay and the internet in general - extreme skepticism.

Dale Proctor · 08-17-2006, 09:01 AM

Yes, there's a lot of misinformation passed around on sites such as these. In my opinion, Olds Ambassadors are very good student horns, but that's it. They can't compare to a good, modern pro horn. The same can be said for about 90% of the vintage horns out there. There's some "romance" about playing a vintage horn, but when the spotlight is on me and I have a choice, I'll take a modern pro horn almost any day (and I have a few really good vintage horns).
Same can be said about the Bach quality "issues" that are frequently discussed. Most of the claims of "terrible" Bachs are just repeated heresay, more misinformation to mislead those who are looking for accurate info. I try to be accurate in any info I present on a forum, but I'm sure I'm also biased by my preferences in the way trumpets, mouthpieces, etc. work for me. You're right - the best way to buy a horn is in person, and even then, your first impression of a horn may be better than your long-term impression. Good luck on the eBay sales.

gzent · 08-17-2006, 10:20 AM

It depends on what you define as a 'modern pro horn' and what you like in the playing characteristics of a horn.

An Olds Ambassador made in the late 50's to early 60's with properly working valves and no major problems, which is usually the case, will perform as well as the average mass produced 'pro horn' being sold today.

That's my opinion.

AND, with a few modifications it will play BETTER than most mass produced 'pro horn' being sold today.

And that's the opinion of the people who have played my Forza demo horn!

Dale Proctor · 08-17-2006, 12:32 PM

The definition of a modern pro horn will vary from person to person, but I'd say in general, I define modern as 1950's on. Pro would be an Olds recording, Bach Strad, King Silver Flair, Besson Meha, Conn Constellation, etc. - top of the line mass-produced horns. Playing characteristics of these horns vary from brand to brand and from person to person, but there's no way a good Ambassador plays as well as a good Strad. They just don't respond as well, are more tiring to play, and have more intonation problems.
What you do to mod them (leadpipe, braces, etc.) may make a world of difference. If so, that's great (and your modified horns look cool!), but I'm talking about stock, eBay type of horns. People hype these Ambassadors so much that many people are disappointed when they finally buy one. I have a modified one (still with the stock leadpipe) and it's a fun horn for big band, but I sure wouldn't try to play a classical concert on it.

gzent · 08-17-2006, 01:10 PM

Dale,

Let's be clear on what we are comparing. I'm comparing vintage Olds Ambassadors in good shape (from 50's and 60's) with the typical mass produced 'pro' horns of today.

I agree that a good Strad plays better than a good Ambassador, the thing is, of all the Strads I've tried I've only found one 'good' one and that is the Mt. Vernon Strad (56 I believe) my friend owns - from the era when they were real customs, not an assembly line horn.

The fact that you and I both acknowledge that there are 'good Strads' and the 'not so good', well, that says something about how a typical new Strad plays.

After looking through the latest WWBW catalogue, I wouldn't recommend a new mass produced, assembly line horn to anyone. Why would anyone part with $1800 to $2100 when for another $500-$1000 a whole other world of custom, high quality horns is available? Horns that are custom made to the owner, without the hit and miss quality of the catalogue horns.

my 2c,

Greg

Dale Proctor · 08-17-2006, 02:06 PM

Well, what I meant by a "good Strad or Ambassador" is good mechanical condition. What's "good" playing-wise, as you said earlier, is very subjective. We may have to agree to disagree, but I sure wouldn't pick a 50 year old Ambassador over a new Strad (if they're still making them!). Price-wise, sure the Ambassador gives more bang for the buck when comparing used prices to new list prices of pro-level horns.

Compare a typical used Ambassador for $100 to a used Strad for $600, and you're at the same point you made about buying a horn at the next level for $500 more. And a Strad is at the next level. I've never played a bad one. I owned a '55 Mt. Vernon 43 ML Strad and a '77 Elkhart 43 ML Strad simultaneously for about 15 years, and they were both great horns. A little different, but both played very well. I sold the Mt. Vernon and kept the Elkhart! It's a MUCH better horn than my Ambassador. I bought a mid-90's Bach 184G cornet a couiple of years ago. It's the best playing horn I've ever owned and maybe the best I've ever played. I also have an early 80's Bach C, another great-playing horn. Both are fairly new, mass-produced horns.

Anecdotal evidence, for sure. Maybe I'm just a Bach guy and their playing characteristics are suited to me. Custom-made horns are for accomplished players who know what they want. Most people can get something that fits fine "off the rack".

gzent · 08-17-2006, 02:37 PM

I think people who start out on Bach often have just stayed with them.

People who started on other brands, well, at least older players, might not be able to buy a new horn of the same brand since many brands are no longer around or they are no longer made in the same way (Benge and Conn, etc).

What's funny is that of the 100's of trumpet players I've conversed with there were plenty that played Bach Strads and switched to something else when buying new. On the other hand, I can't recall a single case where someone was playing another pro horn and replaced it with a new Strad.

Dale Proctor · 08-17-2006, 04:53 PM

Thanks for the good discussion, Greg. I've cruised your website and your Forza trumpets look like a superior alternative to many of the new horns folks are buying these days. Looks like the buyer gets a "new vintage" horn with terrific valves and improved playing characteristics. Here's wishing you continued success with your venture!

gzent · 08-17-2006, 05:12 PM

Thanks Dale!

08-17-2006, 03:52 AM	#42 (permalink)
Alex_In_CA New Friend Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 11	Grrrr. But I think there is a limit ..... I'm a beginner and have read a bit and heard people sing the praises of the Olds Ambassador, Ok..... bid on one on EBay, didn't think I'd win it... meanwhile found Paul Ayick on the net and ordered one all "gone through by him" online..... for 2-1/2 times as much. Both arrive the same day. Both are about the same condition, and both are .... ok I guess but cranky. I'd rather just learn than fight with valves that don't go back up always etc., I got a nice Yamaha cornet from the local pawn shop and it works fine, I want to learn to play, i'll learn to fix 'em later lol. The two sight-unseen-bought horns are on on Ebay, hope I get a decent price for them but I don't care at this point. From here on out, I'll buy a horn in person, if it'd a garage sale etc and it's a screamin' deal great, but I reserve the right to maintain the proper attitude towards ebay and the internet in general - extreme skepticism. __________________ Big bad Yamaha cornet, courtesy of Ace Pawn! I fought the scale and the .... scale won! But I'm learning......

08-17-2006, 09:01 AM	#43 (permalink)
Dale Proctor Mezzo Forte User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Heart of Dixie Posts: 704	Yes, there's a lot of misinformation passed around on sites such as these. In my opinion, Olds Ambassadors are very good student horns, but that's it. They can't compare to a good, modern pro horn. The same can be said for about 90% of the vintage horns out there. There's some "romance" about playing a vintage horn, but when the spotlight is on me and I have a choice, I'll take a modern pro horn almost any day (and I have a few really good vintage horns). Same can be said about the Bach quality "issues" that are frequently discussed. Most of the claims of "terrible" Bachs are just repeated heresay, more misinformation to mislead those who are looking for accurate info. I try to be accurate in any info I present on a forum, but I'm sure I'm also biased by my preferences in the way trumpets, mouthpieces, etc. work for me. You're right - the best way to buy a horn is in person, and even then, your first impression of a horn may be better than your long-term impression. Good luck on the eBay sales. __________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away." - Sir Thomas Beecham Olde Towne Brass www.otbrass.com Brass Band of Huntsville www.brassbandofhuntsville.org

08-17-2006, 10:20 AM	#44 (permalink)
gzent Forte User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Rochester, MN Posts: 1,515	It depends on what you define as a 'modern pro horn' and what you like in the playing characteristics of a horn. An Olds Ambassador made in the late 50's to early 60's with properly working valves and no major problems, which is usually the case, will perform as well as the average mass produced 'pro horn' being sold today. That's my opinion. AND, with a few modifications it will play BETTER than most mass produced 'pro horn' being sold today. And that's the opinion of the people who have played my Forza demo horn! __________________ Harmony and understanding Sympathy and trust abounding No more falsehoods or derisions Golden living dreams of visions Mystic crystal revalation And the mind's true liberation Last edited by gzent; 08-17-2006 at 10:23 AM.

08-17-2006, 12:32 PM	#45 (permalink)
Dale Proctor Mezzo Forte User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Heart of Dixie Posts: 704	The definition of a modern pro horn will vary from person to person, but I'd say in general, I define modern as 1950's on. Pro would be an Olds recording, Bach Strad, King Silver Flair, Besson Meha, Conn Constellation, etc. - top of the line mass-produced horns. Playing characteristics of these horns vary from brand to brand and from person to person, but there's no way a good Ambassador plays as well as a good Strad. They just don't respond as well, are more tiring to play, and have more intonation problems. What you do to mod them (leadpipe, braces, etc.) may make a world of difference. If so, that's great (and your modified horns look cool!), but I'm talking about stock, eBay type of horns. People hype these Ambassadors so much that many people are disappointed when they finally buy one. I have a modified one (still with the stock leadpipe) and it's a fun horn for big band, but I sure wouldn't try to play a classical concert on it. __________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away." - Sir Thomas Beecham Olde Towne Brass www.otbrass.com Brass Band of Huntsville www.brassbandofhuntsville.org

08-17-2006, 01:10 PM	#46 (permalink)
gzent Forte User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Rochester, MN Posts: 1,515	Dale, Let's be clear on what we are comparing. I'm comparing vintage Olds Ambassadors in good shape (from 50's and 60's) with the typical mass produced 'pro' horns of today. I agree that a good Strad plays better than a good Ambassador, the thing is, of all the Strads I've tried I've only found one 'good' one and that is the Mt. Vernon Strad (56 I believe) my friend owns - from the era when they were real customs, not an assembly line horn. The fact that you and I both acknowledge that there are 'good Strads' and the 'not so good', well, that says something about how a typical new Strad plays. After looking through the latest WWBW catalogue, I wouldn't recommend a new mass produced, assembly line horn to anyone. Why would anyone part with $1800 to $2100 when for another $500-$1000 a whole other world of custom, high quality horns is available? Horns that are custom made to the owner, without the hit and miss quality of the catalogue horns. my 2c, Greg __________________ Harmony and understanding Sympathy and trust abounding No more falsehoods or derisions Golden living dreams of visions Mystic crystal revalation And the mind's true liberation

08-17-2006, 02:06 PM	#47 (permalink)
Dale Proctor Mezzo Forte User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Heart of Dixie Posts: 704	Well, what I meant by a "good Strad or Ambassador" is good mechanical condition. What's "good" playing-wise, as you said earlier, is very subjective. We may have to agree to disagree, but I sure wouldn't pick a 50 year old Ambassador over a new Strad (if they're still making them!). Price-wise, sure the Ambassador gives more bang for the buck when comparing used prices to new list prices of pro-level horns. Compare a typical used Ambassador for $100 to a used Strad for $600, and you're at the same point you made about buying a horn at the next level for $500 more. And a Strad is at the next level. I've never played a bad one. I owned a '55 Mt. Vernon 43 ML Strad and a '77 Elkhart 43 ML Strad simultaneously for about 15 years, and they were both great horns. A little different, but both played very well. I sold the Mt. Vernon and kept the Elkhart! It's a MUCH better horn than my Ambassador. I bought a mid-90's Bach 184G cornet a couiple of years ago. It's the best playing horn I've ever owned and maybe the best I've ever played. I also have an early 80's Bach C, another great-playing horn. Both are fairly new, mass-produced horns. Anecdotal evidence, for sure. Maybe I'm just a Bach guy and their playing characteristics are suited to me. Custom-made horns are for accomplished players who know what they want. Most people can get something that fits fine "off the rack". __________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away." - Sir Thomas Beecham Olde Towne Brass www.otbrass.com Brass Band of Huntsville www.brassbandofhuntsville.org

08-17-2006, 02:37 PM	#48 (permalink)
gzent Forte User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Rochester, MN Posts: 1,515	I think people who start out on Bach often have just stayed with them. People who started on other brands, well, at least older players, might not be able to buy a new horn of the same brand since many brands are no longer around or they are no longer made in the same way (Benge and Conn, etc). What's funny is that of the 100's of trumpet players I've conversed with there were plenty that played Bach Strads and switched to something else when buying new. On the other hand, I can't recall a single case where someone was playing another pro horn and replaced it with a new Strad. __________________ Harmony and understanding Sympathy and trust abounding No more falsehoods or derisions Golden living dreams of visions Mystic crystal revalation And the mind's true liberation

08-17-2006, 04:53 PM	#49 (permalink)
Dale Proctor Mezzo Forte User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Heart of Dixie Posts: 704	Thanks for the good discussion, Greg. I've cruised your website and your Forza trumpets look like a superior alternative to many of the new horns folks are buying these days. Looks like the buyer gets a "new vintage" horn with terrific valves and improved playing characteristics. Here's wishing you continued success with your venture! __________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away." - Sir Thomas Beecham Olde Towne Brass www.otbrass.com Brass Band of Huntsville www.brassbandofhuntsville.org

08-17-2006, 05:12 PM	#50 (permalink)
gzent Forte User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Rochester, MN Posts: 1,515	Thanks Dale! __________________ Harmony and understanding Sympathy and trust abounding No more falsehoods or derisions Golden living dreams of visions Mystic crystal revalation And the mind's true liberation

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