Liad Bar-EL

I have not looked lately but what is the current production horn cost say for something like the B1 which is what my horn is equivalent to?

Liad Bar-EL

dcstep

Around $1800 or so...

__________________
Schilke '60 B1
Selmer Paris -- '57 #20 K-Modified/
'03 Concept TT w/ GR66.8B2.8
'94 Lawler TL cornet w/ Sparx 2B
Conn Vintage One flugel - GR66FD
www.pitpops.com www.ucm-inc.com
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

Liad Bar-EL

Thanks for the information Dave.

I've had my horn reconditioned by Ron Pinc who did an excellent job. He use to work for Schilke and he was surprised to see this horn. He told me that the horn was kept in excellent condition.

What is interesting is that I bought the horn new but not from Schilke. I bought it from a former trumpet/cornet horn maker called Conn in Elkhart, Indiana. They had this horn on their bench trying to copy it. A friend of mine who was a pro jazz Clarinet/Sax player saw it and asked if they would sell it to me. I bought it and I was in High School at that time. What this horn has been through since that time really amazes me.

I think that this horn is worth a little bit more to me than just the price of a Vintage one. This one was made with love of the work in the hands of old man Schilke of which made him famous. It is this love that I feel when I play it and it is hoped that others will feel it when they hear it.

I wonder if the value of the older Schilkes are more because the company changed hands in the last few years. Alluding to this, I am also wondering if when any horn, if its production changes as might the quality, would the previous horn editions turn into vintage models?

Liad Bar-EL

dcstep

I think that the oldest Schilkes are worth more because Schilke himself supervised their construction. In your particular case he may have substantially built it himself. I don't think that the recent change in ownership has devalued current production because the manufacturing techniques are reported to have been fully carried over from the prior ownership.

I played an early B1 (not as early as yours) and I was blown away by the responsiveness and resonant tone. I was going to buy a new one since the one I tried was not for sale; however, none of the several new examples that I tried compared to the old 1960s B1. I ended up with Selmer Paris instead.

I suspect that you've got a very special Schilke that cannot be replaced. It's probably got response comparable to the finest handmade trumpets by Blackburn, Eclipse, etc. such that you'd expect to spend North of $3000 to replace it. You had it reconditioned by one of the very best in the business, so its value should hold and even build slowly.

Don't trade it for a V1 (good as they are). Drop me a note if you ever "have to" sell it. However, if it were mine it wouldn't come onto the market until sometime after they bury me.

Dave

__________________
Schilke '60 B1
Selmer Paris -- '57 #20 K-Modified/
'03 Concept TT w/ GR66.8B2.8
'94 Lawler TL cornet w/ Sparx 2B
Conn Vintage One flugel - GR66FD
www.pitpops.com www.ucm-inc.com
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

Liad Bar-EL

Yes, hand made by Mr. Schilke himself.

Even if you closed up those two spaces in that number 3, I still would not sell it. Presently, however, I do not have anyone in the family to carry it on after I am gone but one never knows what will happen in the future. Maybe I won't be gone nor have to will it to anyone.

Liad Bar-EL

Scooter01

Vintage refers to recognized enduring importance. It has nothing to do specifically with a certain age of product. Wine is a certain vintage depending on the year it was produced. The vintage can be good or bad. With art it refers to something created within a certain time frame of the artists life. With musical instruments I would use it to refer to an instrument made during the time that good instruments of notable quality and appeal were created. Therefore it could be 5 years old or 50. What is important is that it is desirable.

Liad Bar-EL

So, vintage is more in the eyes of the beholder? Let me see if I understand this..........

There is one among many things that I do desire in the making of a horn aside from its perfection in construction is a high moral standard of the maker himself. I can't help to think that the trumpets made by old man Schilke, who was a very honest and good man, were better than the ones made now who have advertised Schilke trumpets with naked women. Now holding to your explanation above, people who "recognized enduring importance" of and find naked women to be "desirable" with their horns, just might consider the Schilkes made within the last couple of years to be "vintage"?

In this matter then a standard of what is desirable and important needs to be established before we can consider what vintage is or is not and this standard should be established outside of one's own personal desires and knowledge of importance, otherwise, it just boils down as to who wants what horn for what personal and not "universal" reason.

Actually, Scooter01, your post is very valuable for it has brought this thread back to the original question of this thread: What is Vintage? You are saying to my understanding that it means different things to different people and I am saying that there should be a universal standard.

If vintage is dependant upon indiviudal preferences, then there could be countless items involved here; however, if vintage is determined by universal standards then what would those standard be?

Liad

Cornet1

My copy of the 'Concise Oxford Dictionary' mentions wine and cars; A 'vintage' wine is one of "high quality kept apart.." and a vinatage car is simply one made betrween 1917 and 1930, as distinct from a "veteran" which must have been made "before either 1916 or 1905"......

I suspect that when we talk about 'vintage' brass instruments that we actually mean "classic" status, which COD lists as; "......harmonious, well-proportioned and finished..." And; "...of acknowledged excellence...", and; "...historic associations..." amongst many and detailed definitions.

Liad Bar-EL

I asked the question in this thread of 'vintage' as a noun and you are defining it in terms of an adjective but never mind we'll make up something if Oxford and Webster can not get to the bottom of this. Oxford seems to be interested in wine and cars whereas Webster includes and yet goes beyond the wine/car aspects of this word……"a collection of contemporaneous and similar persons or things: CROP; a period of origin or manufacture (a piano of 1845 ~); length of existence: AGE.

I tend to think that the quality of vintage is a quality that has ceased to exist in manufacturing of like-products and can not be duplicated again even though like-products continue to be manufactured. In some respect, the vintage item(s) remain(s) as one of a kind.

In terms of a Schilke or any other horn that was made many years ago can not compare to the high precision technical manufacturing standards of today; however, there is an "artistic" value which no technical manufacture can duplicate and it is this value which determines the "worth" of the horn to be defined as vintage.

If this is true, then if Bach one day starts making their horns to not sound like the Bachs of today, then every Bach that was made during that previous time period would be vintage horns. Thus, this could fall into the 5 year period that Scooter1 mentioned.

How does this sound?

Liad

Cornet1

Well, when reading your post I realised that even more difficult to tie down is the 'usage' of terms such as 'vintage'. After sitting here for some time pondering I have concluded that ones particular culture has a big part to play....

It's just my personal view; but I could never regard a Bach as 'vintage' although it may well be a 'classic' instrument.

Interestingly, many old and classic cars are not vintage,..at least here in England. I have never heard of any Ford being refered to as "vintage" except in sales and auction catalogues,...and that is well understood by buyers as a not too subtle attempt to 'trade up'. Plenty of old Ford mosels reach 'classic' status quite easily though.

Standard Bach models will never be of equal vintage to, say, a Hawkes 'Clippertone' trumpet or W.Brown echo cornet etc...