Tootsall

Or perhaps using the modern, more fuel-efficient version?




(It's even his colour... Monette "gold" with silver accents)

Manny Laureano

'hem, 'hem... back to the subject... ...

So, let me challenge a bit here... my interest in jazz has grown primarily because of Wynton Marsalis' contributions. His involvement in Ken Burns' PBS epic excited me to look beyond the surface. Let me accept the premise that he's not an innovator in jazz for now.

Was not his double Grammy win (deserved or not) an innovation in and of itself? One could argue that Benny Goodman was there earlier before Grammy awards existed. I find it interesting that today's young classically trained trumpeters are coming out of schools with a far greater knowledge of jazz than did my generation. Can it be denied that Wynton's double Grammy had something to do with that and again is that an innovation? Or is that phenomenon being labeled something else for lack of a suitable term, that term being innovation?

All this brings me back to the question of whether Wynton took back jazz back to its roots and in so doing brought it forward because of what SEEMS like a resurgence of interest by a group that typically showed only a passing interest in it.

Have at, folks... I've really learned a lot by the responses in this thread.

ML

Brekelefuw

As a musical innovator, Wynton has been there to bridge the gap between classical and jazz players, showing that you can do it both. But to me, in terms of moving jazz music forwards, I can't really see his innovation. His biggest influence on my jazz playing is his demonstration of flawless technique. His sound is like no other because his technique is so perfect. When I need an example of a perfect sound, it is him who I go to. He is also very musical, but when I listen to alot of his jazz playing, I find his ideas are not inspiring. When I hear Freddie Hubbard or CLifford Brown or Diz, or Clark Terry etc etc They play lines that connect with me. Some even bring a smile to my face or make me break out in laughter. http://trumpetkings.blogspot.com/200...pole-orch.html
Take this clip for example. It is Freddie Hubbard playing like I have never heard him before. His style in this clip, to me, isn't typical of what he plays for the most part, but since then, I have listened to this clip countless times because it is just awe inspiring to hear it.
The only Wynton album that has ever made me smile is his new album "Live at the House of Tribes" and for the most part, it wasn't the notes that made me smile, it was his facility ont he instrument. His improv for the most part just seems like he is playing notes because he has to, but they have very little effect on my emotions. Sometimes I feel that this is because his playing is perfect, maybe if he played a bit less well, it would connect with me. You hear Freddie and Lee cack all the time, and it helps add to the realism of the music. It sounds less like they are playing a fancy etude, and more like a spontaneous improvisation.

Let me quote Legendary trumpet player Lester Bowie when speaking about Wynton.
" Here's this cat, obviously, obviously - everybody KNOWS this cat ain't got it. But they keep on pressing: ' He's got the technique and andy day he's gonna come up with this astounding new development.' Beleive me, it ain't gonna happen... Wynton is a good musician, but he's been totally miscast. No way in the world is he the king of jazz, the king of trumpet..."


While the Ken Burns documentary is a good learning tool, and a great way for people to get interested in jazz, I find that he missed alot. He never mentioned any guitarists, nor did he mention anything about fusion. Both these things have a huge effect on jazz. Fusion was a huge part of the late 60's and 70's and it lead to the innovations of the 80's and 90's. Guitarist, while not having gigantic impacts like Bird and Diz and Coltrane and Monk, are still very important. Freddie Green held down the rhythm section in Basie's band and never took a solo. His style is still immitated when palying in big bands. Django played with only a few fingers but his lines never faultered because of his disability. One guitarist (who's name escapes me) played without a pick and his sound was totally original. These things needed to be included. Not just what Wynton says.

And now I will quote Betty Carter:
"The Lord didn't stop giving out talent with Duke Ellington...Wynton thinks he's the end. But why do we only have to play Duke? You've got to bring something to the table."

And Keith Jarrett on Ken Burns:
"Now that we've been put through the socioeconomic racial forensics of a jazz-illiterate historian and a self imposed jazz expert prone to sophmoric generalizations and ultraconservative politically correct (for now) utterances...can we have some films about jazz by people who actually understand the music itself?"

Francis Davis:
"Music isn't baseball; there are no statistics for measuring acheivements, and Burns is as entitled to his opinions as I am mine - even if his seem to come wholesale from Marsalis and company"

And finally a harsh quote from Lean Parker:
" When the torch got passed to Wynton the historian, and he took control, that's when jazz actually died. He put down Kenny G. but the truth is Kenny G. was playing himself. Kenny G. is a fake white boy. GREAT! That's who Kenny is. THe question is, "Wynton Marsalis, who are you?"


I hope this has cleared up my thoughts a bit. And left you with some quotes (that I don't 100% agree with) to think about.

All these quotes are from "Quotable Jazz" by Marshall Bowden

Manny Laureano

I watched, I listened, and I really think it's so subjective that we'll have to leave it at that. For me, I didn't find anything that moved me as much as you so, all that says is we have different expectations from various artists. Freddie did something you say is different from what you were accustomed up to that point and it did something special for your heart. I went in with no real background and didn't get the same feeling. It reminded me of some very well-played lines by Maynard back in the late fifties that I have on record. Very much the same shapes and transitions.

But then, you can have someone go see Henry V and come out saying "What's the big deal?" and I would just shake my head. So, please know that I'm not discounting what you said in the least! I'm actually saying that I have a LOT of homework and it'll be the most enjoyable homework I've ever had to do!

ML

Brekelefuw

I know you aren't discounting me, I am just voicing my opinions to offer another perspective.

Veldkamp

I agree with most things you said, but I would not take Wynton as an example for a perfect sound. But everybody has his own taste ofcourse.

I just got a few outstanding videos of Freddie Hubbard and Clark Terry. Every note there're playing makes sense to me. I like Wynton a lot but sometimes he does the same thing Arturo is doing, showing off their technique and skills.

I can recommend the Jazz 625 video of Clark Terry and Bob Brookmeyer if you want a taste of perfect technique and musicality, combined with humor, a swinging band and great arrangements!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...375385-7880629

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beartrumpet74

Wynton's "Black Codes" CD, while not an innovation, comes close in my mind. I am not sure that Wynton has ever pushed the improvisation boundries, but I will say that winning a pulitzer for "Blood on the Fields" seperates him from a lot of people that have some before, in that his interests are very broad. This seperates him in my mind from the likes of Hubbard, Morgan, etc...

BUT

I would not consider Morgan an innovator. Harmonically he didn't break new ground, and his involvment in Hard Bop, or as many of my professors refer to it as... more funky, earthy jazz with a heavy blues influence, was not ground breaking ....
This is because he was not the first to explore this style of jazz. Many others did it first.
It is so hard to really get down to a concrete idea of what being an innovator means sometimes huh?

To me Wynton is more than a mearly amazing technique player, he is a solid artist...ablight....one that is now focused on reproducing the past in great detail.
Just a note for Manny: To many jazz players outside the realm of us trumpeters, what Wynton has done is the cardinal sin. He has tried to totally define what jazz is and isn't. whether right or wrong, the previaling attitude in jazz is one of "move forward or get out of my way" . I'm by no means making a value judgment on this statement, I'm just observing that it exsists.

Loosely termed I would describe some players and thier innovations as follows

Louis Armstrong - Pretty obvious, so I won't belabor the point

Roy Eldridge - The bridge between swing and bebop, along with Charlie Shavers. Roy is largely considered to main person that Diz was coming from.

Fats Navarro - Firmly one of the first great "bebop" trumpeters along with Diz. I personally like Fats more than Diz.

Miles Davis - What style didn't he help pioneer? Modal Jazz, Cool Jazz, what I call post-bop, Electronic and rock influenced jazz, symphonic oriented i.e. hi stuff with Gil Evans, CRAP!!!! the list goes on and on with Miles.

Clifford Brown- simply because in my mind he is the best bebop trumpeter who ever lived. In addition, his articulation style has influenced SO MANY trumpeters since.

Booker Little - Because of his harmonic and composition style...Check out some of his three horn charts.... can you hear the influence he had in Dave Douglas' writing? You should.

Freddie Hubbard - Maybe the best pure trumpet technician until Wynton. Although over the years my interest in Freedie is SERIOUSLY diminishing. I hear a lot of inmature musical statments in his playing i.e. Lip trills on a double C in the middle of a chorus for seemingly no reason other than the fact that he can do it. I'm not much on that kind of thing.

Woody Shaw - for the reasons we talked about already earlier in this thread.

I hope that short list helps describe some of the reasons I think these poeple were innovators. The list is far from complete, but I wonder how Wynton would fare when judged on the type of things I just listed? Probably pretty well actually. But then again ..maybe not. All I know is that Wynton could be, if he chose to be, an innovator in harmonic ways, compositional ways ( which in my view he already is), and in style ways. He is still young... let's wait it out and see what else comes out of his bell before we relegate him to the garbage heap of non-innovators.
Peace
Matt

trickg

I think that the term "great" in the question needs to be considered and weighed. Great according to whom? Other trumpet players? Other musicians? The general public?

I personally believe, even though I have never really cared for his work, that there is one person who stands out head and shoulders above the rest in terms of jazz innovation.

Miles Davis.

His work is known by trumpet players, other musicians and the general public alike, and from what I have read, it seems he pushed boundaries like no other trumpet player or even jazz musician before or since with maybe the exeception of Diz and Charlie Parker.

But keep in mind, that I'm fairly ignorant of many other great jazz players - there are names mentioned in this thread I've never heard before....but I have heard of Miles.

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Brekelefuw

What about Coltrane. Bird and Diz created bebop, but Coltrane laid down the foundations for all jazz that occured after him because of his harmonic inventiveness.

wiseone2

Don't tell Hassan Ibn Ali that!
Wilmer

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