trpt2345

For me Woody Shaw was the last great stylist, not talking about innovation or anything, but his vocabulary was the last really big identifiable style. Everyone worth their salt has a voice, but who can tell who's more innovative, more original? We all stand on the shoulders of giants, some taller than others.

Manny, here's a thought: one of the things that differentiates jazz and classical playing is that in the latter there is an ideal "sound" towards which everyone aspires, whereas in jazz it is incumbant upon one to have a personal voice by which one can be identified like one's tone of voice when one speaks. To me the most important question when assesing a jazz trumpeter or any instrumentalist for that matter is do they have their own voice.

Me, I'm happy that when I play my wife always knows it's me and not someone else, she's not a musician, but when she hears a recording of me she says, that's you.

Michael McLaughlin

"One never plays on the beat, it is considered aggresive." Duke Ellington

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Joe DiMonte

[quote="trpt2345"]For me Woody Shaw was the last great stylist, not talking about innovation or anything, but his vocabulary was the last really big identifiable style. Everyone worth their salt has a voice, but who can tell who's more innovative, more original? We all stand on the shoulders of giants, some taller than others.

Manny, here's a thought: one of the things that differentiates jazz and classical playing is that in the latter there is an ideal "sound" towards which everyone aspires, whereas in jazz it is incumbant upon one to have a personal voice by which one can be identified like one's tone of voice when one speaks. To me the most important question when assesing a jazz trumpeter or any instrumentalist for that matter is do they have their own voice.
Me, I'm happy that when I play my wife always knows it's me and not someone else, she's not a musician, but when she hears a recording of me she says, that's you.

Great commentary !
In addition to what in jazz is termed establishing a voice,I'm sure the classical cats on this board would agree that there are clear differences between classical and jazz.
For example,in classical the performer is expected to produce as accurately as possible what the composer had in mind.
In jazz,the the composer's work is only the framework for the players improvisation.
The jazz performer esentially composes as he plays ,and composes differently every time he plays.

I get a kick whenever I listen to Hank Crawford's version of "Little Sunflower"
(from his CD titled TIGHT) and Danny Mixon (pianist) stretch out with a series of nursery rhymes.

Keep BOP alive !

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"Clark Terry - C.T.,as his friends call him,is not only a master of the trumpet and flugelhorn,but a master musician and a leader to the manor born." - Dan Morgenstern.

trpt2345

Great commentary !
In addition to what in jazz is termed establishing a voice,I'm sure the classical cats on this board would agree that there are clear differences between classical and jazz.
For example,in classical the performer is expected to produce as accurately as possible what the composer had in mind.
In jazz,the the composer's work is only the framework for the players improvisation.
The jazz performer esentially composes as he plays ,and composes differently every time he plays.

I get a kick whenever I listen to Hank Crawford's version of "Little Sunflower"
(from his CD titled TIGHT) and Danny Mixon (pianist) stretch out with a series of nursery rhymes.

Keep BOP alive ![/quote]

Hank Crawford, there's a guy with a voice!
You know, actually, when it comes right down to it, I'm probably not as "trumpet oriented" as most of you here, I don't really listen for trumpet per se but for music, I see the trumpet as a way to get to music but not an end in itself. Which is why maybe I'll always prefer guys like Miles or Don Cherry to guys like Maynard and Sandoval. In the end, the first two make what is really interesting to me whereas the second two are astonishing trumpetists but their music doesn't do much for me. I downloaded that Tutti Camerata thing that someone mentioned but it really left me kind of cold, I just don't hear much but a great surface and nothing underneath, whereas to me the underneath is the most interesting. Maybe another reason why jazz is endlessly interesting to me more so than classical music, besides the drums. (Music without drums is like an egg without salt).
And in the end music isn't about the music so much as what it points to, like what Jarrett and Herbie Hancock and Wayne Shorter talk about. It's like, life, and so on. Which is what all great art is about in the end.
My $.02. I'm listening right now to Coltrane playing with Stan Getz in Dusseldorf in 1960-wow!

Michael McLaughlin

"Strength is your enemy-weakness is your friend." Arnold Jacobs

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Joe DiMonte

Hank Crawford, there's a guy with a voice!
You know, actually, when it comes right down to it, I'm probably not as "trumpet oriented" as most of you here, I don't really listen for trumpet per se but for music, I see the trumpet as a way to get to music but not an end in itself.

Funny you said that.
Whenever I attend a gig that features a small combo with a trumpeter,I only hear the trumpeter while my wife hears the piano and bass.
It's either the Hudson River or Ohio River water that's causing this bias.

__________________
"Clark Terry - C.T.,as his friends call him,is not only a master of the trumpet and flugelhorn,but a master musician and a leader to the manor born." - Dan Morgenstern.

trpt2345

Really, really disagree with that one. First, Louis invented the solo. The solo as a construct not dependent on the melody and based on the chord structure. Then he invented scat singing. Then he invented the use of popular tunes (Broadway, film, etc.) as material for jazz explorations. Oh, and there was that thing about swing too. Other stuff like inspiring Earl Hine's "trumpet style" of piano playing in which the right hand plays a melody and the left accompanies with chords. Can you come up with anyone else who innovated so much? Jazz wouldn't have happened the way it did without Louis. It would have been like physics without Newton and Einstein, astonomy without Galileo and Copernicus, rocketry without Goddard and Von Braun, classical music without Bach, Mozart and Beethoven.

Michael McLaughlin

"You can't play anything on trumpet, even modern, that Louis hasn't already done." Miles Davis, 1961

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wiseone2

Mike,
This post caught my eye.
There is a mistaken idea that players of music other than jazz strive to sound alike. Bud didn't sound like Mager, he had his own very distinct voice. Gil Johnson sounded like Gil Johnson. Try as we may, that tone produced by Bill Vacchiano could not be duplicated.
The sound we all try to produce is Beauty. Think about how beautiful and different are the sounds of EVERY major trumpet player. From Pops to Diz to Roy Hargrove to the newest kid on the scene, all different. From Glantz to Caston to Mager to Chris Martin, all different.
As long as there are trumpet players, there will never be a last innovator.
Wilmer

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S.Suark 1951

Solar Bell

And THAT'S why it's called Wise Talk.

Thanks Wilmer.

-cw-

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The Willard of Oz

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beartrumpet74

You must have misunderstood my post


Really, really disagree with that one. First, Louis invented the solo. The solo as a construct not dependent on the melody and based on the chord structure. Then he invented scat singing. Then he invented the use of popular tunes (Broadway, film, etc.) as material for jazz explorations. Oh, and there was that thing about swing too. Other stuff like inspiring Earl Hine's "trumpet style" of piano playing in which the right hand plays a melody and the left accompanies with chords. Can you come up with anyone else who innovated so much? Jazz wouldn't have happened the way it did without Louis. It would have been like physics without Newton and Einstein, astonomy without Galileo and Copernicus, rocketry without Goddard and Von Braun, classical music without Bach, Mozart and Beethoven.

Louis did innovate maybe more than anyone else, BUT!
The question I was answering was about continually innovating... which Louis Armstrong DID NOT DO!
Please show me one trasncribed solo where his harmonic style, rhythmic style, scat style, tune choice, trumpet sound, or any other indicator changed after the year ... well lets just say ... 1940 ( arbitrary)
Louis was the first and possibly largest innovator in jazz, although there are many other around the same time period, so this point is debatable.
He did not ivolve in the way Miles Davis did.... and I believe that is the crux of the question I was refering to.
Matt

beartrumpet74

Louis invented the solo

By the way...
Buddy Bolden is largely credited with being the first improvisor in what would roughly be considered a jazz style.
There are no know recordings of him that survived. Goggle him and check it out...

Bolden's playing was ledgendary with other players from his period, and many jazz historians are now exploring information about Bolden.
Check it out... bet you'll dig it.
Matt

trpt2345

The only problem with that is nobody alive now heard him. There are no recordings. So it's impossible to know exactly what his influence is. Whether he soloed the way Louis or Bechet did we'll never know. He remains an enigma, like a composer all of whose manuscripts are lost.

Michael McLaughlin

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