trpt2345

To me that sounds a little like complaining about God that after creating the univers and everything in six days that he didn't keep on making stuff.
Instead of worrying about what he didn't do we should appreciate what he did do.Can you name another trumpet player like Miles who "continually innovated"? Roy Eldridge sounded pretty much the same from beginning to end, Clark Terry, Dizzy, Freddie Hubbard, even Woody Shaw. Some would consider it a weakness in Miles' approach that instead of sticking with one area and refining it, like Bill Evans, he jumped from thing to thing. In that way he's like Picasso, instead of Vermeer for example. Usually one innovation is sufficient for a lifetime, and very few (Miles Ellington, Coltrane) innovate over a long period of time. Innovation per se isn't that important to me, personality, sound, voice are.

Michael McLaughlin

__________________
Chicago MM

trpt2345

Point taken. Here's a question: when you play jazz is your sound different than when you play classical music? If so, how is it different? We do all try to play "beauty" but the point I was getting at is that there is a different idea of what it is in different areas.
I was probably expressing myself badly.

Michael McLaughlin

"If those are the allegations, where are the allegators?" Richard J. Daley, the older one.

__________________
Chicago MM

wiseone2

When I play, I play in the context of the situation I am in. When sitting on top of a chord in a big band, do I play the same way as I do when playing Mahler? Is my forte the same in a pit on Broadway as when playing a John Adams opera? The answer is no to those questions, but unless you have been there you will not realize how strongly you DO have to play in those situations.
I sing the different tunes in a different tone of voice. A few years ago at the Grammy Awards, Aretha sang "Nessun Dorma" straight from the opera. Imagine.......Aretha doing Pavarotti singing Puccini It is easier for us to do that kind of stunt.
Playing in a small jazz group is a different story.......Joe Wilder or Wynton would have answers to that.
Wilmer

__________________
Be sure Brain is engaged before putting Mouthpiece in gear.
S.Suark 1951

trpt2345

Manny, here's a thought: one of the things that differentiates jazz and classical playing is that in the latter there is an ideal "sound" towards which everyone aspires, whereas in jazz it is incumbant upon one to have a personal voice by which one can be identified like one's tone of voice when one speaks. To me the most important question when assesing a jazz trumpeter or any instrumentalist for that matter is do they have their own voice.
[/quote]
Mike,
This post caught my eye.
There is a mistaken idea that players of music other than jazz strive to sound alike. [/quote]

Sorry not to let this go but I am really interested in the question. I think you may have misinterpreted what I said. I did not say that in classical music everyone tries to sound alike, but rather that there is an ideal sound to which everyone aspires. "The sound." Since it is an ideal no one attains it, and no one can really sound exactly like anyone else. But this is obscuring what I think is one of the fundamental differences bewteen playing classical music and playing jazz. In the latter, you are always expected to sound like yourself, bring out the individual quality in service of self-expression rather than conveying the composer's intentions. Then there is a bunch of stuff related to phrasing and articulation; as Wynton says in classical music all notes are equal but in jazz some notes are more important than others and some aren't important at all.

It is a given that as a professional one needs above all to fit into the situation and play in context, but I am trying to articulate what those contexts are and how they differ.

I remember that Aretha performance; she even sang it in Pavarotti's key. She can do whatever she wants, and she has been granted a lifetime exemption from the Anti-Melisma Society.


Michael McLaughlin

"When you write a score, don't ever arrange it. When you do you are confined by your own personal prejudices." Duke Ellington

__________________
Chicago MM

wiseone2

Sound does not always mean sound Style is most times what is spoken about but called sound. Miles style is instantly identifiable as is Diz or Brownie. Players in symphonies are obligated to play the same notes in the same way each time a work is played..........sort of. There was a post in one of the trumpet groups, maybe this one, that had several different performances of the Mahler #5 opening. So many ways to do the same thing!
A jazz player has many, many more options when soloing.
Given all the things just stated, I still believe that each and every one of us is an innovator. The goal of Beauty is universal among ALL musicians.
Wilmer

__________________
Be sure Brain is engaged before putting Mouthpiece in gear.
S.Suark 1951

Joe DiMonte

beartrumpet74 wrote:

Bolden's playing was ledgendary with other players from his period, and many jazz historians are now exploring information about Bolden.
Check it out... bet you'll dig it.
Matt.

Dear Matthew:
May I remind you just as history repeats itself,historians repeat each other.
Absence of a recording by Buddy Bolden,conclusions reached by historians cannot be relied upon.
Consider these three (3) established facts.and draw your own conclusion.

1)Buddy Bolden never recorded.
2) The 1st jazz recording occured in 1917.
3)Buddy was hospitalized in a mental institution sometime after 1907 (not
Hotel California) and remained there until his passing in 1931.

Keep BOP alive !

__________________
"Clark Terry - C.T.,as his friends call him,is not only a master of the trumpet and flugelhorn,but a master musician and a leader to the manor born." - Dan Morgenstern.

Vulgano Brother

Am surprised that the name of Don Ellis hasn't yet appeared. From Third Stream to his orchestra he was pushing the envelope, never ran out of ideas when soloing, and had about a zillion guys come up throuch his rehearsal band.

__________________
www.letsbuildhope.org

Joe DiMonte

I've never seen Don in a "live" setting and although I have most of his offerings,I do consider him a great player and one with a Latin tinge like that of Kenny Dorham but not a BeBopper as Kenny,et al .
Circa 1963,I've heard of his name and later learned that he was active in
the Buffalo,NY area.
I'll be remiss if I mention Buffalo without mentioning Gerry Niewood,one of my favorite reed players.

In summary,please excuse my bias as I'm a Be-Bopper since birth (1945) !

__________________
"Clark Terry - C.T.,as his friends call him,is not only a master of the trumpet and flugelhorn,but a master musician and a leader to the manor born." - Dan Morgenstern.

the8thchef

wow. its very interesting to see the variety of responses to the topic i introduced...and to the business--->
first, when the man says he's wise, yall better listen!
"There will be innovation as long as there are trumpet players. Each time you hear a player playing the simplest blues tune, you hear an innovator. Each time you hear a finely turned phrase at a concert, you are hearing innovation.
You are an innovator. Never accept the trivial in music, always do it better.
You are the latest innovator.
Wilmer"

Tim Mcginley: payton's "fresh take to New Orleans playing" is, not to simplify, is throwing a lot of morgan/hubbard hardbop and 70's soul on top of Louis Armstrong and N'orleans sound.
hargrove, "perhaps reminiscent of Lee Morgan,"-->my point in his exclusion
davenport, "baker-like"

beartrumpet74: YES!!! woody shaw=soul/rock influence, rock as in chuck berry and parliament funkadelic, not beatles and led zeplin. to talk about woody's use of pentatonics and fourths, etc. like talking about shakespeare's spelling or iambic pentameter--the meaning is missed; or talking about bruce lee's yellow jumpsuit or shaquille oneal's sneakers.
"woody's music was rooted in swing and the jazz aesthetic"--yeah. all music that is not european classical music is rooted in both swing and the jazz aesthetic; swing is what the earth dances to, literally; the jazz aesthetic has been the same, from egypt to yoruba to aztec to sioux, since before the first african came to the new world.
on jenkins; its not about "playing out." bird was playing out until others understood what he was talking about. thelonious was playing hiphop before most people were playing bebop, and nowdays to play even monk's hiphop in the "jazz establishment" is considered out or at least alternative.

ok, now.terrence blanchard is reiterating much of what has been said before.

wallace roney. i'll tell you, when it comes down to a general showdown, and the dust clears, you will most likely see wallace roney and wynton. they are the two baddest players out there. and for anyone to say otherwise is betting his money unwisely (wise2, what do you think?)
roney does sound like miles, but so does ingrid jensen and chris botti. but what roney is doing is extending miles' language, by authority of miles himself. see, what many dont understand is that jazz a lot like shaolin warrior artscience; jazz is a warrior artscience. like shaolin, styles developed and are continued, extending particular forms into future generations. i.e., louis armstrong-->clark terry-->dizzy-->miles&kd; or, dizzy-->fats navarro-->clifford brown-->lee morgan, freddie hubbard, booker little, woody-->hargrove, payton, and most players playing in the last 15 years.

wynton, like i said, is one of the top two hardest hitting. but like lester bowie said, wynton will not be the one to introduce new trumpet language; wynton is the golden man of jazz's neo-classical movement and period (which we are all still suffering in, for the most part, the business/financial part); is purpose was to save the music from the music industy's attempt to bury the music in the 80s. and to be the one to elevate the potential of the business aspect. and to be 'the guy' to be toppled in the public's eye.

now, lester bowie. you know, for some unknown shameful reason, my friend and i did not even bring him up. but now that bowie's banging his trumpet on my head, i have to listen to his catalogue all over again. (thanks spt.paulitan!!) but, you know, out of the later generations that have been playing in the last 20 years, he might be one of the last true innovators. although he doesnt reiterate what cherry does, he is very close to cherry's lineage, in terms of approach and the silent things beneath the sound.

btw. by 'innovator' i'm not talking about how many followers, or anything like that. the innovator i'm talking about is one who does not reiterate what the ancestors and elders have already spoken, nor reiterates what others reiterate (for most players are only reiterating, if they're not repeating completely). the innovator builds upon what the ancestors and elders have spoken, taking those essential lessons into another space, altering the language (all language is rhythm) basis upon which these lessons are shared. the innovator shows clearly who most of his influences are, but does so by speaking himself, letting his wisdom on the trumpet tell rather than the licks he plays.

and so i reiterate my own point, upon the wise words of wilmer wise; i am the next one. one out of many, certainly. but that many is very few. and in terms of really moving the language, most that you hear nowdays arent doing it like me. honestly.
...but you will all soon see. patience is the key.

(soooo sorry for the long post. i'm busy hitting the streets, brass in hand, with my left foot forward. been gone a while, had a little to get out)

__________________
the 8th chef <--> 7th sun of lee morgan the cooker


bach tr300 that just appeared one day after my last two horns suddenly disappeared

a musket is just as lethal as a machine gun

Joe DiMonte

all music that is not european classical music is rooted in both swing and the jazz aesthetic; swing is what the earth dances to, literally; the jazz aesthetic has been the same, from egypt to yoruba to aztec to sioux, since before the first african came to the new world.
on jenkins; its not about "playing out." bird was playing out until others understood what he was talking about.

As a born Beboper,I get a bit nervous whenever I see the name of the father of Bop (Charlie Parker) used in a sentence.

First,a minor correction - NOT all knew what Mr.Parker was doing.
Case in point,circa 1949,Mr.Parker attended a workshop sponsored by the Selmer Instrument Company in Paris,France.
In attendance was Selmar's Master saxophonist Marcel Mule.
Mr.Parker started playing a song on his alto and Mr.Mule stood up and attempted to correct the way Mr.Parker was fingering a particular phrase.
Mr.Parker assured Mr.Mule that it was possible to play the passage with his "personalized" fingering because "I just played the Mother XXXXXX.
Mr Mule was at a loss for words.

Now allow me to address the crux of the matter....
It's true that some jazz improvisations are limited while others are rich in both notation and rhythmic figures.
Some artists are more classically (European art music) oriented rather than blues oriented.
BOBBY TIMMONS,in my humble opinion is one of the best blues oriented player I've ever seen in my close to 61 years on this planet.

By the way,did you know that Bobby Timmons and the Wise One were the two trouble makers at Barrett Junior High School in South Philadelphia during the good old days ?
Ask Tootie Heath the next time you see him

__________________
"Clark Terry - C.T.,as his friends call him,is not only a master of the trumpet and flugelhorn,but a master musician and a leader to the manor born." - Dan Morgenstern.