the8thchef

...joe di, your correction is no correction; read my post, there is nothing incorrect about what i say about bird. bird was playing out until others understood what he was talking about. i didnt say until everyone understood. dig. most players out right now that go around spittin bird's(hit) dont understand what bird is talking about, same as how all these young trumpeters go around spittin that hubbard but have no clue what he's talking about.

and to add to the matter...most jazz players playing today, especially many that get paid and paid well, do not know what the essence of what they are trying to do really is. not to diminish their musicianship, because almost all of them are great musicians. musicianship and great musicianship is a given. however, most are out there playing notes and copying patterns; sort of like painting by numbers...the difference between thomas kinkaid and jean-michel basquiat.

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the 8th chef <--> 7th sun of lee morgan the cooker


bach tr300 that just appeared one day after my last two horns suddenly disappeared

a musket is just as lethal as a machine gun

Joe DiMonte

Don't know much about Kinkaid or Basquiat but I can write volumes about the differences between RIPPLE (Gallo) and Robert Mondavi .

Keey your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars.

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"Clark Terry - C.T.,as his friends call him,is not only a master of the trumpet and flugelhorn,but a master musician and a leader to the manor born." - Dan Morgenstern.

asd

These sorts of questions are very interesting in theory and can be misguided in practice.

Let's cite an example: If we were all lawyers, and there was a site like this for lawyers, and the question was, "What was the most influential jusrisprudent act of the 20th century?" we would all be, to some extent, knowlegable (maybe!) to opine on this point because:

1) We had the same education, more or less.
2) Had access to the same critical tools to substantiate our claims
3) Hopefully had simialr, if not as spectatular, legal experience
4) The list goes on.

Now on a forum with people of all ages, experiences, and so forth, as one finds here, a question like this becomes mute, or even unfair due to the wide disparagy in knowledge. Ok?

For me, trying to grapple with this very thorny issue as orginally posted, I have to first think of what innovation is, and more importantly, waht it is to the trumpet, then to jazz, then to music, then to the arts, then to the arts and humanities, and finally to that slippery moniker: Art.

But back to the jazz trumpet: I might say late 19th century slave hollarers in the sothern cotton fields, Larry Young, and Bartok. This outcome might tempt me to say Woody Shaw. But I would need to present quite a bit of substantiation to make my point (on Woody i could do it; Don Cherry not.)

Why? becuase i think we are talking more about influence (another sticky wicket!!) rather than innovation. Sometimes in art, it has been my experience to see that what is labled as "innovation" is merely the natural outgrowth and evolution of an art form; i.e., swing, bop, hard bop, west coast, modal, free, jazz-rock, neo-bop, etc. Or, if you like, Bubber Miley, Rex Stewart, Bix, Roy Eldrige, Dizzy, Miles, and finally Woody Shaw. But my list is woefully incomplete and also discounts subsets.

Now we can take positions on a subject like this no matter who we are, but waht do they really mean? Actually not much. More important to ask which trumpet player has the most impact on us musically and emotionally, emulate that player (by playing transcibed solos of him/her that you transcribed as well as immitating the player geturally) and then get on the bandstand and forget it. But what remains is the life force of that player imprinted on your psyche (hopefully you chose more than one player during your development years!!) and that, I think, we may, perhaps, agree that many of the great players did and do. Through that introspective process, we might begin to see a kernal of "influence" and some day "innovation" or perhaps not.

Just some thoughts.

krossum

wow. how did I miss this thread?

thanks for the enjoyable read!

ok, sorry to waste bandwidth...

later
-Kelly

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“This art is acquired only by laborious studies, for the rebellious nature of the instrument demands a great aptitude coupled with a persevering willingness to become a master of it.” – F.G.A. Dauverné (1857)

Bugler

That pretty much says it all.

Only thing I can add is what Ray Crisara told me when I asked him if James Burke REALLY was the greatest cornet soloist in history. (They were best friends, and Ray had written an article included in Burke's book "New Directions in Tonguing" suggesting same).

Ray said to me "What flavor of ice cream do you like?" He elaborated further to make sure I got his point, delivered like a loving grandfather.

hornguy

Obviously getting into this thread very late, but I have to support the mention of Don Ellis. Had he not died so young, he would have really had an impact.