Today's Gigs in Jazz - Page 2

tptshark · 01-05-2007, 10:38 PM

Hi all!

I tend to think that music is a collaborative artform. We almost always perform with other musicians, music written by other musicians, sometimes in collaboration with actors, dancers, and other artists (set/lighting designers etc). When i play a custom built horn, the artistic collaboration also exists between myself and the maker - not saying that the workers in the bach or schilke factory arn't artists in their own right, but they havent collaborated with me to build my horn; when you buy a custom horn this collaboration exists. I spent a lot of time discussing with Felix from NYTC what i wanted, and what he would like to build, before he actually went ahead with building my horn.

Until i began playing custom (i used to play a schilke - fantastic horn!) i didnt realise the effect this would have on my playing. even practicing now becomes a collaborative event, and i find myself practicing my daily routine and exercises with a much more musical approach, and with renewed vigour. I have found myself being much more exacting (if that's possible), thanks to 'Felix's ghost', that is with me on every gig.

As for what gigs we aspire to - i think there are so many fantastic musicians around today that the goal has become to perform the kind of music, and in the situations, you desire rather than play with this person or that person (although, of course, we all have our idols!). I also think that with the ease of communication that exists today it is increasingly possible to achieve these goals, provided you can "prove" youself as a worthy collaborator.

Cheers!
- Adrian

Richard Oliver · 01-06-2007, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rowuk

For me it is a great tragedy that Chicago doesn't play Schilke, New York NYTC, LA Benge or Kanstul, etc, etc. Every orchestra with their "own" sound.

Now that be nothing short of wonderful!

Regards,

Richard Oliver

Joe DiMonte · 01-07-2007, 09:37 PM

[quote=asd;284457]You know, I've heard it all before--your argument is familiar--but in order to play with Max, or Horace, et al--you had to prove yourself--in today's world anyone with a multi track has "opertunities."

This is true and the main reason why it held through the early '70s was because the listening audience never accepted mediocrity even from
legends with lack-luster performaces at nights.

Joe DiMonte · 01-07-2007, 09:58 PM

Guess I'm old school, but I wonder where all of these players with GR mouth pieces and Monette equipmment and the explosion of trumpet equipment/manufacuters play and perform. There have always been choices, but not like today.

Do we really need $1000 of dollars of equpment to play in a community organization or even in college?

For example, I really like red wine. And I know a bit about it. And I live in France. Now you can get a bottle here for 2 bucks or thousands. I have the wine "chops" to understand what makes a $75 bottle of wine worth it. But any higher and I just don't get it or am I able to understand the dynamics that make that wine "great." But there are people who can "taste" wine right up to those $800 bottles of Burgundy or Bordeux.

I too am old school,very much old school and was in agreement with you up to the point until you mentioned Bordeux.
It's evident to me you have departed these USA for a much extended period and is unaware of the fine fermented grapes from the Napa Valley of California.
At any rate,over the Christmas holidays I was watching a symphony orchestra on PBS and the elderly gent on the french horn had the seam of his horn wrapped in duct tape.
A younger player of today would have had a spare or two (from Sam Ash,NYC) by his side and in different colors.
Back in the day,I recall Nat Adderley telling a story of the evening he was robbed of his cash and horn and during the robbery he pleaded with the robber to not take the item wrapped in his hand-kerchief.
The robber opened the kerchief saw the mouthpiece and said: "THAT" and proceeded to toss it back at Nat.

That later became known as "The Work Song."
Carrying more than one trumpet to a gig is just a "Sack Of Woe."

Joe DiMonte · 01-07-2007, 10:16 PM

[quote=Siegtrmpt;284523]Shoot......we could also drive to work in a 4 door 1965 Falcon decorated with rust and bondo and we'd still get to work but a Vette or a Mercedes gets us there in style.

How cost effective was that ?
During the late '50s through the mid '60 in NYC, 15 cents could get you to the gig aboard a Brooklyn-Manhatten Transit Corp (BMT) or the Interborough Rapid Transit Authority (IRT) subway train.
The next time you see Wilmer or Max Roach or Sonny Rollings,or Phil Woods or Terry Gibbs,ask them about the ride aboard the A Train - after 59th Street/Columbus Circle,next stop is/was 125th Street Harlem,USA.

Siegtrmpt · 01-08-2007, 08:27 AM

[quote=Joe DiMonte;284902]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siegtrmpt

Shoot......we could also drive to work in a 4 door 1965 Falcon decorated with rust and bondo and we'd still get to work but a Vette or a Mercedes gets us there in style.

How cost effective was that ?
During the late '50s through the mid '60 in NYC, 15 cents could get you to the gig aboard a Brooklyn-Manhatten Transit Corp (BMT) or the Interborough Rapid Transit Authority (IRT) subway train.
The next time you see Wilmer or Max Roach or Sonny Rollings,or Phil Woods or Terry Gibbs,ask them about the ride aboard the A Train - after 59th Street/Columbus Circle,next stop is/was 125th Street Harlem,USA.

Not everything in life has to be cost effective. Freedom and capitalism are beautiful things. You pay your money and take your choice.

redface · 01-08-2007, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asd

If you carry that anaolgy to trumpets and mouthpieces can people really hear/feel/conceptulize the diference between a really good Bach (and i mean good) and these new instruments that seem to be cropping up every day??

If people can tell the difference between a good bach and a bad bach then they can tell whether they prefer a bach or a schilke or a monette or an eclipse.

rowuk · 01-08-2007, 03:34 PM

When you have no money, you are greatful for ANY horn that you have (we have russian musicians during their summer break in the streets of the shopping districts here playing accordian and balalaika to earn money for new instruments). I really do not understand why some people get hung up on "alternative" instruments regardless of price.
Where is the problem?
Does a jazz musician that pays $3000 for a mint 1949 Martin or a beat up Connstellation for $50 on ebay have to "justify" his choice? I know of no serious trumpet player that got where he or she is because of hardware. If any of you feel that there is no need for a trumpet costing more than a grand - wonderful. I am sure that if carefully chosen, the hardware will not be in the way. For players that are looking for something else (I do not say better here on purpose) I say good for you and me.
Every time the issue of money comes up, I get the impression that some players with lower cost horns are trying to get us to apologize or to justify to themselves that there isn't enough difference to make the purchase worthwhile. Well to be honest, I played a Bach 72* for 12 years and then switched to a Monette Ajna II. I, on occasion I pick up a Bach Bb just to see.... no reason to even start thinking about going back. The differences are repeatable and quantifiable. It is only one of many horns that I play. I have a great Bach C trumpet (229/25H large bore) and often find myself using the Ajna Bb instead simply because it works better.
I do not think that Maurice André, Wynton Marsalis, Dizzy, Maynard or any of the other "greats" ever cared about what YOU use - as long as the job got done. For those of you seeking justification - forget it - you just like me don't need it - if you get the job done.
For any college student that walks in the first day with $100,000 of trumpets, you better be prepared to blow your @ss off or you will take a lot of heat!
For the critics: $9000 for my Ajna II did not make me a better trumpet player, it did give me an axe with greater dynamic range and more "color", more stability of intonation (even on "bad" days) and power than what I was playing before. Every time that I have taken it out of the case since 1998 I feel good having made a decision that involved no comprimise. Since I started working with Dave Monette in 1997, I have received much insite from him and many of his other clients and partners - that has made me a better trumpet player.

wilcox96 · 01-08-2007, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe DiMonte

This is true and the main reason why it held through the early '70s was because the listening audience never accepted mediocrity even from
legends with lack-luster performaces at nights.

Joe this is right on. Some call it the dumbing down of society. I think it may even be the "inclusion of all society" that is really more to blame. Let me explain... You see this especially with younger kids (whom are taught this - and then grow up with this mind set).. that everyone is special - everyone should be included - all are praised - no child left behind...to coin a phrase! ha. This may take the well intentioned thought of giving everyone a chance to the wrong level. It seems more appropriate to keep everyone on a level playing field (yes, bringing up some - yet holding back others).

Let's face it... there is only a relative handful of really good/great players out there. The rest are just - okay or worse. Okay is still wonderful...but we're talking about the folks who can "really" play and are enjoyable and "worth" listening to. If society says - everyone gets to do it - (and if you listen to much of what is on the radio these days...)- isn't that all the more evident? We don't care if you are talented or not. We are giving "everyone" the opportunity. Plus....if that's all that's out there for folks to listen to (and I'm even talking about down to the local jazz club level)... then what do you think happens to the jazz audience? It either gets dumbed down along with it...or gets turned off. ...and the downward spiral continues.

I have had a glimmer of hope recently. My 15 yr old son has been asking me about some of my favorite artists or simply for recommendations for artists/tunes for his ipod. I have provided suggestions. This kid has just come alive with appreciation for the musicianship he's discovered. I came home "one" night to sit down at the computer to find the wallpaper and screen saver - was a huge tribute to Buddy Rich.

Education ....

Offer less...the return is lesser still...

Offer the best..........?

Richard Oliver · 01-08-2007, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilcox96

Education ....

Offer less...the return is lesser still...

Offer the best..........?

Darn tootin'!

Brad, your post reminds me of the end of C. S. Lewis' The Screwtape Letters where I believe, in my volume, he added an essay much later titled Screwtape Holds a Banquet or something similar.

It contains the very best digest on education I have ever read anywhere in my life. It's short. Imaginative. Damning. And vitally important.

Regards,

Richard Oliver

01-05-2007, 10:38 PM	#11 (permalink)
tptshark Pianissimo User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Australia Posts: 69	Re: Today's Gigs in Jazz Hi all! I tend to think that music is a collaborative artform. We almost always perform with other musicians, music written by other musicians, sometimes in collaboration with actors, dancers, and other artists (set/lighting designers etc). When i play a custom built horn, the artistic collaboration also exists between myself and the maker - not saying that the workers in the bach or schilke factory arn't artists in their own right, but they havent collaborated with me to build my horn; when you buy a custom horn this collaboration exists. I spent a lot of time discussing with Felix from NYTC what i wanted, and what he would like to build, before he actually went ahead with building my horn. Until i began playing custom (i used to play a schilke - fantastic horn!) i didnt realise the effect this would have on my playing. even practicing now becomes a collaborative event, and i find myself practicing my daily routine and exercises with a much more musical approach, and with renewed vigour. I have found myself being much more exacting (if that's possible), thanks to 'Felix's ghost', that is with me on every gig. As for what gigs we aspire to - i think there are so many fantastic musicians around today that the goal has become to perform the kind of music, and in the situations, you desire rather than play with this person or that person (although, of course, we all have our idols!). I also think that with the ease of communication that exists today it is increasingly possible to achieve these goals, provided you can "prove" youself as a worthy collaborator. Cheers! - Adrian __________________ www.adriankelly.com

01-07-2007, 09:37 PM	#13 (permalink)
Joe DiMonte Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh,Pa Posts: 618	Re: Today's Gigs in Jazz [quote=asd;284457]You know, I've heard it all before--your argument is familiar--but in order to play with Max, or Horace, et al--you had to prove yourself--in today's world anyone with a multi track has "opertunities." This is true and the main reason why it held through the early '70s was because the listening audience never accepted mediocrity even from legends with lack-luster performaces at nights. __________________ "Clark Terry - C.T.,as his friends call him,is not only a master of the trumpet and flugelhorn,but a master musician and a leader to the manor born." - Dan Morgenstern.

01-07-2007, 09:58 PM	#14 (permalink)
Joe DiMonte Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh,Pa Posts: 618	Re: Today's Gigs in Jazz Guess I'm old school, but I wonder where all of these players with GR mouth pieces and Monette equipmment and the explosion of trumpet equipment/manufacuters play and perform. There have always been choices, but not like today. Do we really need $1000 of dollars of equpment to play in a community organization or even in college? For example, I really like red wine. And I know a bit about it. And I live in France. Now you can get a bottle here for 2 bucks or thousands. I have the wine "chops" to understand what makes a $75 bottle of wine worth it. But any higher and I just don't get it or am I able to understand the dynamics that make that wine "great." But there are people who can "taste" wine right up to those $800 bottles of Burgundy or Bordeux. I too am old school,very much old school and was in agreement with you up to the point until you mentioned Bordeux. It's evident to me you have departed these USA for a much extended period and is unaware of the fine fermented grapes from the Napa Valley of California. At any rate,over the Christmas holidays I was watching a symphony orchestra on PBS and the elderly gent on the french horn had the seam of his horn wrapped in duct tape. A younger player of today would have had a spare or two (from Sam Ash,NYC) by his side and in different colors. Back in the day,I recall Nat Adderley telling a story of the evening he was robbed of his cash and horn and during the robbery he pleaded with the robber to not take the item wrapped in his hand-kerchief. The robber opened the kerchief saw the mouthpiece and said: "THAT" and proceeded to toss it back at Nat. That later became known as "The Work Song." Carrying more than one trumpet to a gig is just a "Sack Of Woe." __________________ "Clark Terry - C.T.,as his friends call him,is not only a master of the trumpet and flugelhorn,but a master musician and a leader to the manor born." - Dan Morgenstern. Last edited by Joe DiMonte; 01-07-2007 at 10:00 PM.

01-07-2007, 10:16 PM	#15 (permalink)
Joe DiMonte Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh,Pa Posts: 618	Re: Today's Gigs in Jazz [quote=Siegtrmpt;284523]Shoot......we could also drive to work in a 4 door 1965 Falcon decorated with rust and bondo and we'd still get to work but a Vette or a Mercedes gets us there in style. How cost effective was that ? During the late '50s through the mid '60 in NYC, 15 cents could get you to the gig aboard a Brooklyn-Manhatten Transit Corp (BMT) or the Interborough Rapid Transit Authority (IRT) subway train. The next time you see Wilmer or Max Roach or Sonny Rollings,or Phil Woods or Terry Gibbs,ask them about the ride aboard the A Train - after 59th Street/Columbus Circle,next stop is/was 125th Street Harlem,USA. __________________ "Clark Terry - C.T.,as his friends call him,is not only a master of the trumpet and flugelhorn,but a master musician and a leader to the manor born." - Dan Morgenstern.

01-08-2007, 03:34 PM	#18 (permalink)
rowuk Moderator Fortissimo User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 4,394	Re: Today's Gigs in Jazz When you have no money, you are greatful for ANY horn that you have (we have russian musicians during their summer break in the streets of the shopping districts here playing accordian and balalaika to earn money for new instruments). I really do not understand why some people get hung up on "alternative" instruments regardless of price. Where is the problem? Does a jazz musician that pays $3000 for a mint 1949 Martin or a beat up Connstellation for $50 on ebay have to "justify" his choice? I know of no serious trumpet player that got where he or she is because of hardware. If any of you feel that there is no need for a trumpet costing more than a grand - wonderful. I am sure that if carefully chosen, the hardware will not be in the way. For players that are looking for something else (I do not say better here on purpose) I say good for you and me. Every time the issue of money comes up, I get the impression that some players with lower cost horns are trying to get us to apologize or to justify to themselves that there isn't enough difference to make the purchase worthwhile. Well to be honest, I played a Bach 72* for 12 years and then switched to a Monette Ajna II. I, on occasion I pick up a Bach Bb just to see.... no reason to even start thinking about going back. The differences are repeatable and quantifiable. It is only one of many horns that I play. I have a great Bach C trumpet (229/25H large bore) and often find myself using the Ajna Bb instead simply because it works better. I do not think that Maurice André, Wynton Marsalis, Dizzy, Maynard or any of the other "greats" ever cared about what YOU use - as long as the job got done. For those of you seeking justification - forget it - you just like me don't need it - if you get the job done. For any college student that walks in the first day with $100,000 of trumpets, you better be prepared to blow your @ss off or you will take a lot of heat! For the critics: $9000 for my Ajna II did not make me a better trumpet player, it did give me an axe with greater dynamic range and more "color", more stability of intonation (even on "bad" days) and power than what I was playing before. Every time that I have taken it out of the case since 1998 I feel good having made a decision that involved no comprimise. Since I started working with Dave Monette in 1997, I have received much insite from him and many of his other clients and partners - that has made me a better trumpet player. __________________ Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

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