Manny Laureano

Glenn,

You said something very interesting about composers setting out to turn the musical world on its ear.

How about this: I would contend that the greatest composers set out to do no such thing. I contend that they did no more than speak with the miraculous combination of heart and intellect that produced their voices. Those voices were unique and inventive. But they just did what came natural to them, y'see?

When a composer tries to go out of his way to be different, even a less sophisticated audience can sense it, hear it. People have a way of detecting sincerity of performance and composition. I think they can tell when someone is forcing an issue.

So, if you buy that contention, who today speaks with a natural and unique voice? Who can hear when notes are not being played properly in performances of his/her music? Who knows every note in the scores they have written and is that evcen neccesary to be a great composer?

ML

Veldkamp

As much as I love the music of Brookmeyer, Schneider, McNeely, etc. I don't think they have had the same impact on the masses as Beethoven or Mozart had. Maybe you could better think of James Brown, his music is noticable in a lot of modern music. His grooves are the most sampled pieces of music in the last 20 years.

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beartrumpet74

As much as I understand and respect this opinion I have to disagree. How can you define "the masses" nowadays. I guess that is the crux of this issue in a way. I mean jeez if we start basing this discussion on the general music listening population we're in real trouble because in that scenario Mozart and Beethoven would see their impact quickly diminish as the years go by and we get further and further away from music without words and a snappy beat...sarcasm intended. As much as I love the listening public, I just can't leave it to them to decide who is having or has had the most impact musically. I think what Manny said in his post was right on... you know, about people putting something out there without forcing it being a true indication of greatness or whatever word you would use to describe it. If we use that for a frame of reference then James Brown, Maria Schneider, Mozart , Sting( who I think belongs in any discussion of great composers and musicians), and many others would make the list. I guess I feel that that is the great thing about music...it is what it is to people for different reasons. As far as the next great wiz of composing goes...I have a feeling that it will never be thought of the way it was in the past. With the instant delivery systems for information we have now, it is easy to find EXACTLY what you want and focus only on that. With that in mind, I think it's harder for any artists work to find a thread so common that it can have MASS appeal. Maybe I'm wrong about all this, but it just feels that way to me....
Nice thread though.....
I'm looking forward to everyone's responses....
Peace
Matt

Veldkamp

James Brown is not only popular to "masses" as you define it, but also to a lot of musicians. How can you listen to the Brecker brothers without hearing some James Brown in it?

Just watch the Dennis Chambers (one of the best drummers nowadays) video "In the Pocket" and hear him talk about James Brown.

But James Brown was just a suggestion from me, I also could say Glenn Miller instead of Maria Schneider. In The Mood is one of the most famous pieces...

Or what about John Williams, David Arnold and other film composers?

BTW. I have all Maria Schneider, Bob Brookmeyer, Jim Mcneeley albums, not that you think I'm not appreciating their work.

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rowuk

The trouble with this thread is that not very much is defined.
Beethoven is great not because of snippets of his works, rather the completeness of his "dissertations" regardless of length. We probably will have trouble finding a non classical composer with works of similar magnitude.
There have been many composers that have similarly influenced following generations even although they may not have the absolute greatness of a Beethoven.
Is a CD from Maria Schneider a coherent statement like a symphony? Or is it a collection of not completely related brilliant ideas. How can we compare 20 CD titles to a complete symphony? The basis is completely different.
The commercialization of the music industry feeds the average listener 3 - 4 minute pre-chewed units. Will that influence the "greatness"?

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ecarroll

Robin,

Precisely and we're having a fabulous discussion as a result. I really love this sort of thing. Watching our friends frame each response within their own beliefs and experience is one of the joys of TrumpetMaster (at least for me).

Let's keep it rolling!
EC

robertwhite

That's an interesting question. I think there are some valid aesthetics at work today for which this would be an impossible task.
I'm thinking of Berio's Sinfonia and it's central movement "collage" with all the quotes. To go back even further, Charles Ives. The collage approach has rendered some amazing works, but some of the minute details are purely the provenance of the "found object".

John Adams and Steve Reich also come to mind, because in some of their works there are large-scale events happening in his pieces that are a result of a certain degree of freedom, phasing, etc. So I'm not totally sure that complete "control" of detail is a necessary thing for a great piece.

Messiaen is certainly one who knew the very smallest brushstrokes of his own pieces. Ligeti did also (but in a totally different way). Boulez, Carter, Eotvos are other names I think of when I think of works that are "fine-grained". They definitely know the exact sound they want.

Perhaps we are not in an age where real "greats" can emerge without cynicism and backlash. There's probably no composer alive with the ego of Beethoven - who would advocate themselves to such a degree? They'd look ridiculous, no matter how good their music was.

Gotta go to work! I'll look forward to reading more later.

Bob

trumpetmike

Whilst at university I was playing in the orchestra for a performance of James Macmillan' percussion concerto Veni Veni Emmanuel (amazing piece). He went beyond knowing what notes he had written (he knew those with ease) he also had a very speic tonal idea of what he wanted - The final trumpet entry (of the melody) enters on the B concert) above the stave, marked at pp. I have to admit, I had missed it a few times in rehearsal so was using a piccolo to ensure I hit it. He came over to me during the final rehearsal (which he was present for) and said "no, sorry, I wrote it for the big trumpet - that's the sound I wanted, slightly panicked ")
To me, he is one of those modern composers that has been able to push the boundaries of harmony and sound without doing it in such a way that many classical audiences will run away screaming. If only they were all like him.

I think the mention of film composers (thanks Veldkamp) is a fascinating subject. Much as there are still operas being written, it is not the popular experience that it once was. If someone is truly said to be writing music for the general public to experience it would be the film composers. They are writing music that is often quite contemporary in style, combining elemants from the "classical" genre through jazz and into popular music. Trying to imagine the Magic Flute without Mozart's music is virtually impossible. I would suggest that the same goes for Star Wars or Superman in relation to John Williams.

The modern composers who are frequently heralded as being the great composers of our time are not populare with the general public, which I feel is an important element. They are writing some very interesting "art" music, to be listened to by a very select few.
I studied at Huddersfield University, which is a centre of contemporary music (and holds a major festival each year). Many of the composers featured in the festivals whilst I was there were hailed as the next great thing. Many of these have vanished without trace from the concert world. Many for very, very good reasons. Sadly, it doesn't stop many of the contemporary music buffs continuing to praise the latest composer as the next great thing.
Of the ones I was lucky enough to hear and work with. Ligeti has already been mentioned and I would definitely include him in a list of people whose music I think will last. It has elements that I think appeal to those people who do not spend their whole lives immersed in the contemporary music world. He wasn't afraid to include a melodic element to his writing.
Same goes for James MacMillan.


For me, the best of contemporary music is not just including something because an instrument can do it, but because it makes musical sense to do so. I have read on here (and elsewhere) that composers meet with the great players to discuss what is possible. Some of the time I feel that this results in pieces that are more "look what this instrument is capable of" rather than "here is some music that will move your soul." I am not saying that composers shouldn't speak to the musicians, but rather than approach writing a piece with lots of gimmicks that they want to include, maybe the music should come first?

TrumpetJimmy

The first name to come to mind was John Williams...another was Andrew Lloyd Webber. Popular composers of today in genres that have mass appeal. Who knows....Danny Elfman may be the overlooked composer of our time and in 250 years they will celebrate his music by playing the theme from Tales from the crypt at concerts all over the world.

tpter1

My issue with John Williams is not that his music isn't great (it sure sounds good and it definitely does the job of transporting you to the movie experience) but that he takes SO MUCH from other composers material. Originality is important. (I know...Mahler quotes Brahms several times in different works; but his quotes are nowhere near as frequent as those of John Williams).

In the "artist" thread in this forum there is mention of originality; that immitation has no place in the artist (sorry if I paraphrased incorrectly, Ed). And while there is nothing new inder the sun so to speak, this holds very true for me, after one has learned the rules of his art.

When I commented on composers being set to turn the music world on its ear, this is what I was alluding to. This sense of originality; of the knowledge that one's music is different; the sense that one has something significant to say musically.

That said, I do agree, Mike, that film composers are grossly overlooked. I also think there are a good many wind band composers who are (or were) doing quite interesting things that are also overlooked. (Gillingham and Grainger are great examples; as is Schwantner).

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"Roses have thorns; shining waters mud. Clouds and eclipses stain the moon and the sun; and history reeks of the wrongs we have done. After today, after today, consider me gone."- Sting