ecarroll

Tim,

I think the world of Brian...a true original thinker. Please say hi for me.

Best,
EC

Khora

That is most definitely a great benefit to getting a performance degree- probably the most compelling reason of all. At least assuming one is at a school that has really serious like-minded students. A similar benefit can be gained from summer programs, although we both know how much harder it is to access those from "outside the loop."

The resources available at a school with a performance degree are also a factor - access to an extensive listening and printed music library is a great help in preparing for auditions, chamber music, solo career.

But having access to real liberal arts classes and students in widely diverse disciplines can provide a great insight into how those outside the music world perceive music. The realization of just how completely music is a foreign language to many people makes you think differently about how to communicate about and with music. Of course it is easier to communicate with those who speak the same language, but as a potential performer or educator or promoter, it is especially critical to engage with those who don't.

At least from my perspective.... for what that is worth.

rowuk

If we are, early in our careers looking for a job in the music field that pays reliably, we do not have the time to become the jack of all trades. What we can soak up during our studies is based on our ability to soak up what academia throws at us. I don't think I could have squeezed too much more playing time into my life when I was studying. I had to really work hard to keep up with the "classically" oriented lessons that I had. After graduating, I found time to pursue other interests.

Getting a playing job is a business decision. Many of the pro players that I know would NEVER have taken NO for an answer.

Ed makes a good point about being around peers with similar goals. THAT is what makes Harvard so special in the business world - all the right friends and training very close to what the industry wants afterwards. It can start even earlier. Many influential american ex-patriates send their kids to international schools. The opportunity is not only academic, but the kids meet other kids from families with influence. The ones that run with the opportunity have a very good chance of getting an easier start in their professional life!

I am not sure that there is a music school (influential friends, job oriented training,.....) with the influence of a Harvard, but if I had to pick one it would the Royal Academy in London............... Plenty of schools train academia and soloists.............. Whether THAT is where the market is going or not, I am not sure.

CGUM

Yes, degrees have pretty much no worth. If you use the knowledge(whatever that is) that you gained on your journey to receive said degree then, yes, you have given it value. Whatever it's worth.

well I had this whole long post on this topic and decided to delete it, but I think my last line summed it up.

The question is not "is the performance degree a myth," but are you comfortable with yourself and the decisions you make?

doing alright,
Charlie

ecarroll

Robin,

I once took part in a conversation with a clutch of Dartmouth faculty members who asked "if a neutron bomb were dropped on Harvard, killing the entire faculty (many Nobel laureates), would Harvard still be worth attending?". The conclusion was yes as the student body of peers is so strong.

I believe the same argument can be made for the RAM (I have lots of experience there, as you may know) and Juilliard (ditto). It's the goal of other schools, such as McGill and CalArts, to attract the same quality students as those two. What attracts them? The faculty and curriculum, and thus we come full circle. I suppose the trick is to make the circle smaller and smaller until it disappears. . .

Circling today,
EC

ecarroll

Charlie,

Well said and nice to see you on the board again. Don't be a stranger?

Best,
EC

BFlinch83

Thank you all for thoughtful posting! I had a discussion with a professor last week in an Aestetics course I'm taking about the whole business of music degrees being worth it or not. He asked me if having a graduate degree in performance would help, hinder, or not change the odds I will one day play with the New York Phil or CSO. I answered that it will not change them because yes, it buys time to practice and get better, but it also can serve to disillusion and stagnate the indivuality of the musician. Conservatory-itis is a huge side effect of too much performance education.

In undergrad I had a teacher who told me that every now and then, when coming to this apartment for a lesson, he would throw the money back at me and tell me to train up to NYC to see an opera or go the the MOMA. This type of rounded arts education, he said, would help much more than pounding out excerpts and playing Bitsch.

I would go a step further to agree with Ed Hoffman at Peabody and propose a more broad and varied combination for performers. What could be more useful in the music business than a degree in psychology (to help figure out what your section member is thinking) or sociology (to help figure out what management as a whole is doing). What about accounting because God knows musicians aren't notoriously great with funds (which is ironic).

EC is right when he says students toying with the idea of higher education in performance need to have a serious discussion, with themselves and anyone else who will listen. Starting a program in performance might be exactly what you should do and will be the bridge you need to play in the Phil, but for all of us non-Muckey's out there, it might also be a bridge to a deserted and lonely island with few resources and not enough Advil!

mahaberio

Is a performance degree essential to being a successful musician? I think we can pretty definitively say "no" and then cite examples. However, given the right circumstances, the pursuit of the degree (not the degree itself) is worth it. A good learning environment provides opportunities that otherwise would not be available to someone trying to achieve a high level of performance and in turn make a living in this field.

-Matthew

ecarroll

TMers,

Suplimental study is rarely discussed here. I'm a strong believer in top summer programs such as the Lucerne, Verbier, and Pacific Festivals, the Music Academy of the West, Aspen and Tanglewood, etc. (also Chosen Vale, obviously). A well positioned student at one of the above can get as much hard information and experience as commonly found in a full year of study at many schools.

My own career was launched at Aspen. . .

Best,
EC

TrentAustin

Wow... great stuff in this post. I'm excited for the recent threads that have been popping up here on TM.

I face this topic OFTEN with my students here in Boston and at my college studio.

To be honest, no one has EVER asked me if I received a performance degree on stage. Some have asked where I went to school (UNH)... and then look at me quizically and ask if they have music in New Hampshire ;)

I'm a firm believer in the double major now. Music and business, music and history, etc. I truly believe that today's modern musician has to be as deeply in touch with every facet of this "business" (or lack thereof). I know I learned more about business at Disney in the college "slave" band than anyone ever taught me. I learned more about creativity and artistry at Lake Placid in those two weeks than I did in any one of my college ensembles. I know I'll learn a lot about myself, my role as a creative musician, and my career this year at Chosen Vale (once I get the wife's seal of approval... ha!).

I have never once told one of my students that "they aren't good enough". I had teachers tell me that before and it really ticked me off. Some of my college instructors told me I'd never become a competent jazz musician! Can you believe that? Is that where we've gone in the "music education circles"? I am, however, extremely honest about the current state of music and performing. If they put the time in, listening in, research, "Hustling" for jobs, etc, they can do it.

Clark Terry told me "there's an ass for every seat". I love that thinking!

I know truly believe I have more to offer as an instructor/guide than as a player even though I'm honing my skills as a player constantly (thanks to my recent visit to see Hakan my life has turned upside down... more later on that).

-T